Evidence of meeting #78 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jurors.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Alberta Juror Support Program
I'd like to add a comment to Mr. MacGregor's question. I think we now have a greater appreciation and understanding of mental health issues in general. We now recognize that just because some people—say, first responders—have chosen to work in certain fields does not mean they are immune to the impact of dealing with difficult situations.
I think that now, as a society, we have a greater understanding that people can be exposed to certain difficult situations whether they asked to participate in those events or not, and that these situations can have an impact. I think it's all part of the dialogue we have been having nationally and globally around mental health in general. Perhaps we also see this because of some of the recent court cases and trials that have been more graphic or widely reported.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to you both for attending today and for the good information you have provided.
Ms. Newcombe—and maybe Ms. Jobagy can assist—you were just talking about high-profile or particularly gruesome cases. I wonder if post-trial there is a heightened awareness of the trauma some of the jurors may have faced that might cause them to require counselling. Are all cases treated the same, or is there a heightened awareness in cases that would be more likely to cause mental distress?
Liberal
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Can you hear me okay now?
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
The judiciary would be the ones most aware of the evidence and how it's impacting them. After watching the jurors throughout the trial, as one of my justices from Lethbridge said, where appropriate they will go into the deliberation room at the end to speak to the jurors and remind them about the counselling. I think that's because of what they're feeling, and if the judiciary is feeling it, you can imagine what these poor jurors are feeling.
I wouldn't say it would be in every case that there would be more awareness of the gruesome testimony and the impact. It would be case by case.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay.
Ms. Jobagy, can you walk me through what would happen at the end of a trial if it were a high-profile murder trial? Would there be an actual post-trial debriefing with all of the jurors, to go through the information and ensure they're aware of all of the services that are available to them?
We've heard testimony that some of the jurors couldn't believe that basically when the trial was over, out the door they walked, and there was no wrap-up to put their minds at ease. What can you say about that?
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to answer Mr. Fraser.
Yes, they are correct. They are ushered out of the courtroom and into their jury room, they pick up their backpacks, and they go home. What we have been doing in certain jurisdictions is have a clerk to kind of oversee the jury. She will meet with them at the end to remind them about the package, but there's no debriefing.
Ms. Newcombe and her team and my team talked about having a counsellor, or whoever, come in at the very end for a debriefing. Your witnesses identified the need for that in these hearings, but it has not been implemented.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay.
At the courthouse itself, Ms. Jobagy, we heard some testimony about there being a concern for jurors' protection and safety and interacting with perhaps family members or people known to both the victim and the accused. Do you see any difficulty right now with the way it works in Alberta, in particular with interactions in the parking lot or in break rooms or anything of that sort?
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Yes, it could be an issue. So far the Province of Alberta has not been made aware of any altercations. They certainly could go through security at the same time, so there's the possibility. In the larger centres of Calgary and Edmonton, there's not so much possibility of parking in the same parking lot or anything, while in the smaller centres it could happen that they all use the same parking lot. We simply try to be more aware with the sheriff escorts and the clerk escorts about keeping the jury as protected as possible. They would use secure hallways, not the public hallways, but they still have to go through security.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Can you speak for a minute about jury compensation? I think you touched in your opening remarks on the fact that a review was done and that jurors are compensated differently right now. How does it work in Alberta?
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
In Alberta our jurors are compensated by a daily fee of $50, and their meals are reimbursed. Breakfast is $9.20, lunch is $11.60, and supper is $20.75. Mileage is at a rate of $0.505 per kilometre and parking is $12.75 per day, unless they have a receipt that's more. Babysitting is covered with a receipt, and day care, but there is no coverage for lost wages.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
In the post-trial, if somebody is to access counselling services and they live in a rural area and have to drive to the counselling services, do they get their mileage paid for?
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
That has not been discussed yet. What Ms. Newcombe and I had discussed was that in rural areas the counsellor will go to them.
Could you address that, please, Ms. Newcombe?
Alberta Juror Support Program
I'd be happy to, and thank you for your question, Mr. Fraser.
One of the things we recognized when we looked at the counselling network is that some people might be in more rural areas, so it would not be feasible for them to drive an hour for counselling. Also, in Alberta, winter roads may make it more challenging. With the counsellor network that we're using, we have counsellors people can see in person. They can make an appointment and see them in person, as well as use telephone counselling. That is where the counsellor would call the individual in their home, or another place that's more convenient, and proceed with the counselling appointment in that manner. That would give people flexibility and options to meet their needs.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I'll be very quick.
With regard to the four counselling sessions that are provided, you said that they can ask for more if they need it. Who decides that? Who decides if they get it?
Alberta Juror Support Program
They can ask for additional sessions, but it also could be the counsellor who suggests that an individual really needs more support. We have an agreement with the Alberta Justice team that we can provide additional counselling sessions. We can go from four sessions up to six sessions. If there is a need for even more, we have a process to go back, talk to Ms. Jobagy, indicate that we have a juror experiencing some additional challenges, with maybe something that's triggered in their personal life, and say that they require two or three more sessions. That's how the approval process would go—without revealing names.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you.
Does anybody have any short questions?
Go ahead, Mr. Nicholson.
November 29th, 2017 / 4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much for your testimony. You can and should be very proud of the fact that Alberta seems to be what could be described as the cutting edge in moving forward in providing assistance and counselling to members of the jury. You're ahead not just on the counselling; you're even compensating with respect to a number of the expenses that jurors have. It sounds like your system is a little more complete than those of a number of other provinces.
Let me go back to that $50 a day. In an eight-hour day, that's a little over $6 an hour. You also mentioned the strain on families from these things. Have you ever had any feedback that this kind of payment adds to the stress that families go through? I would imagine that not many people could support themselves on $6.33 an hour.