Evidence of meeting #78 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jurors.
A video is available from Parliament.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thanks, Chair.
My question is for Ms. Newcombe. I'm trying to get a sense of how much counselling is available.
I have previous information that said counselling can be accessed by jurors during a trial or up to two months after the conclusion of a case, and I think you indicated they get four sessions. Is that standard, or is it as long as they need?
4 p.m.
Alberta Juror Support Program
The program parameters target four sessions of counselling. Typically, the period of time in which the jury member can access support is up to two months following the conclusion of the trial. However, should a particular individual require additional sessions of support, with approval we can provide that as well.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
If they think they're okay, but six months later they say, “I've got these issues that I have to work through”, is that too late? Can they still get into the program after, say, six months?
4 p.m.
Alberta Juror Support Program
As far as I know, we haven't had individuals who have accessed or requested access for support after six months, but I believe that the agreement we have with the Alberta Justice team would be to look at those individuals, consult, and present the request for additional support, without necessarily revealing the name of the individual juror to ensure confidentiality. We would work with Ms. Jobagy and her team to ensure that the member gets the support they need.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Are the four sessions just a number for costing purposes? Is it an estimate of what someone might need? What is the normal number of sessions that an individual might need? Is four enough, or do they generally need more? If so, how much more do they need?
4 p.m.
Alberta Juror Support Program
Working with the Alberta Justice team, we were looking for literature or research that gave a guideline on the amount of support that would be needed for someone who had been part of a jury trial. That data just didn't exist. Some individuals may be coping better following a trial than others.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
What is your experience with the service you're offering? How many sessions are typically needed?
4 p.m.
Alberta Juror Support Program
At this point in time, when we review the statistics, on average it's been three sessions of counselling per individual juror.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
Thank you very much.
I'd like to move on to Ms. Jobagy. From the testimony I've heard and the information I've already seen, it sounds as though Alberta is doing a lot of things right. You mentioned such things as counselling. Do you do pretrial counselling? You have a brochure that says what's available, but do you give any kind of heads-up to jurors that tells them to hold onto their hats because this will be a rough one, or do you give them some kind of indication so they are aware of the issues they might encounter?
4 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Mr. Chair, I'd like to address Mr. McKinnon.
In Alberta, as you have heard from some of your witnesses in previous meetings, they are not given any notification prior to the trial as to what they are about to encounter, other than a handout with their jury summons that talks about the process. It doesn't give them any indication as to what the trial is about.
At the very beginning, when they appear for their prospective selection, most often the justice will address the panel then. If they feel it's appropriate, they will provide some details about what they might expect in this particular case.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
In terms of receiving counselling during the trial, there are of course legal issues there. Have you found any difficulties around those issues, and would you foresee a need for adjustments to be made to the criminal law to allow better access to counselling during the trial and after the trial?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
As you heard from your previous witnesses, the deliberations or even what happens in that jury room is just as hard on them as the evidence itself is, and I think that is why Justice Hughes recommended offering counselling mid-trial because of what happens in that room, which none of us is really privy to.
Does that answer your question?
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC
I guess I'm wondering about the legal constraints on people with regard to talking about what they're encountering. I guess they can't talk about the deliberations and they can't talk about the data. It's going to be hard to talk to a counsellor because they'll be talking around the issues they're dealing with. I'm wondering if they have enough scope in the current law to do what they need to do with counselling. If not, I'm wondering if you might be able to recommend any changes to the law.
I realize that's a big question.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Just to make it more precise, I think in your opening remarks you spoke to Australia's law, in which there's an exception for mental health professionals for jury disclosure. I think Mr. McKinnon is asking you whether that type of an exception or a similar type of exception would be something you'd ask us to consider in our Criminal Code.
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Yes.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
That's a very clear short answer. Thank you very much.
Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm very glad to hear that clear answer, because I was going to follow along that same line of questioning from Mr. McKinnon.
There is that section of the Criminal Code that allows for a judge to provide supports for jurors who have disabilities. It could be very easy for this committee to make a recommendation that an additional section be added to the Criminal Code that allows for mental health supports to be provided. I'm glad to hear that could be a possibility for us.
Ms. Jobagy, I'm curious, because we have heard some testimony at this committee about how there are concerns that our justice system and the supports for it could turn into a bit of a patchwork quilt, with jurors in one province being eligible for some great support while others would have nothing at all.
Has Alberta Justice had any inquiries from other provincial governments or officials in other justice programs inquiring about the strengths of your program? Is there some curiosity? Can you tell this committee anything about inquiries from other provincial governments?
4:05 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Mr. Chair, I'd like to address Mr. MacGregor.
I was contacted by Ontario first. The second contact was Saskatchewan. The third contact was Yukon. I was told British Columbia was reaching out, but I have not been contacted by British Columbia yet.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Thank you.
In terms of what this committee can come forward with in recommendations, we've had former jurors talk about establishing a national standard for jurors. From your viewpoint as someone who is really integral to how the Alberta juror support program works, what other roles or supports from the federal government would you like to see? Is it more the Minister of Justice coordinating with her provincial counterparts, or is it something like what we did with our legal aid study, wherein we made recommendations that the federal government be more involved in providing financial resources? Can you elaborate on anything for us that would help us make those very clear recommendations to the federal Minister of Justice?
November 29th, 2017 / 4:10 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
As I said, I have listened to a couple of your committee meetings. All of those comments were very accurate. I was making notes as they were speaking. Their recommendations regarding what they would like to see included in the program are very accurate as well.
Just because Alberta launched first doesn't mean that we have it right. Some of the things that they were recommending are excellent ideas to be incorporated. I think it would be beneficial for them to be the same Canada-wide. I must be careful to note that I'm speaking personally and not on behalf of Alberta Justice.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
Absolutely.
Ms. Newcombe, from your position with the company and the expert services you provide, what has your experience been with other provincial jurisdictions? Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Also, do you have any thoughts on the suggestions for a federal role in this context? Is there anything you can add that might be helpful to us in our deliberations?
4:10 p.m.
Alberta Juror Support Program
I truly am very proud of the work that has been done to recognize the impact of trials on jury members. It appears this is not exclusive to Alberta, so perhaps we should be looking at a broader scope of supports for all citizens.
Speaking on my own behalf, it seems to make sense that what is being done in one part of the country should perhaps be replicated in all jurisdictions. On behalf of the organization, Morneau Shepell, we have worked with individuals who have experienced a range of trauma, whether derived from natural disasters or other types of traumatic events. We recognize that the experience of a jury member is very similar to other types of post-traumatic stress that individuals experience.
Perhaps we need to recognize that traumatic events are not always black and white. With these discussions we are having, we're broadening our horizons as to what people are experiencing these days and how it can impact them.
4:10 p.m.
NDP
Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC
As I've mentioned before, I've met with a variety of first responders in my job as a member of Parliament, but these first responders are trained professionals, while jurors are essentially plucked from civilian life and thrust into this situation.
I am wondering if either of you could comment on something my colleagues and I have been discussing. We're in amazement that a study like this has not been completed before and that jurors have been overlooked this long. I'm curious to know why you think that is. Why have we taken so long to recognize the incredibly important service of jurors?
4:10 p.m.
Deputy Clerk of the Court, Court of Queen's Bench, Alberta Juror Support Program
Some of the reports have indicated that there's a great deal of inertia in the system and a resistance to change. If it's worked for hundreds of years, the thinking goes, why should we alter it? However, there has been an increase in awareness and sensitivities, and we know a lot more about human processes and behaviours now than we did in years gone by.
4:10 p.m.
NDP