Justice Committee on March 1st, 2018

[Diane Redsky]

Currently, in the current court system, there's no incentive for women to come forward. In fact, you end up as a victim. You're the one who ends up on trial. It takes two to five years for a conviction that maybe is one year or two years. The whole time you are re-victimized and re-traumatized. There's really no incentive at all for women to come forward and be part of the court process.

We're recommending that we need to clean that up so that we can have more convictions, and we can have more people being criminalized and accountable for their bad behaviour and their violence against women.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Well, it's funny, because I thought I heard you talk about—perhaps it was another witness—the importance of keeping the law. You certainly said that about Bill C-36. Among your recommendations at the end was the plea that we keep it, but I understand from material available to us, a report that Public Safety Canada did a couple of years ago on the national action plan to combat human trafficking, that between 2012 and 2016, there were 307 trafficking charges, cases brought, and only 45 convictions, so that law doesn't appear to be working all that well. So rather than simply keeping these laws, maybe reform is required within those laws. I just put that to you.

[Diane Redsky]

That definitely is a broader picture around all violence against women. Sex trafficking and human trafficking is an example of many examples of how our judicial system is not working to address violence against women. When you get into sexual assault and into other violence towards women, the convictions are low across the board.

We need to do a lot of work when it comes to improving our judicial system so that there are proper outcomes and positive outcomes to address all violence against women.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Redsky.

I hate to dominate, this because I have so many other questions.

I'll address this to Ms. Gray.

I was intrigued with your recommendation—and I certainly think it intuitively works as well—that teaching girls as early as grade 6 to deal with this issue, to be aware of it.... I understand that. We have people in this country who think sex education is a problem. Imagine how they're going to feel if you're talking about sex trafficking at that age.

Have you given any thought about how we can get the attention of girls as young as grade 6 and mobilize them in this area?

[Mikhaela Gray]

I have given it some thought, and one area I think it could be implemented in is the D.A.R.E. program that already exists. When things like drugs and alcohol are being discussed with the students, it could be something that's taking shape in those conversations. Also, I think that points to the bigger societal issue that we don't want to disclose to children and youth. We don't think they can understand or be taught things at a certain age, but if, in fact, nine-year-olds are being trafficked, then I think we need to fight through any push-back we might receive in educating them in this way, because if they're not educated about the risks and the vulnerabilities ahead of them, how do we prevent them from being trafficked? I would think that is one avenue.

In addition, we can think of other ways to address it. We talked about the value of women and empowering them, so those conversations.... UNESCO has gender sensitivity education, and I think that's a way of talking about and shaping the minds of boys and girls to better understand how to respect one another and the importance of each individual.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rankin.

It seems to me that nine years old is actually younger than grade six. They're grade four.

Anyways, its a scary, scary prospect.

Mr. Boissonnault.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today.

I'm going to try to do this quickly, because I have five or six questions.

The math doesn't add up. Stats Canada came in the other day and said we have 350 reported cases for the whole country that get to the police, and we've heard you all say that's not possible. Ms. Redsky mentioned hundreds in Winnipeg; Ms. Smith, 2,300 cases; Mr. Bouchard, hundreds; and Ms. Gray, hundreds or thousands.

The India model would lead us to believe that 1% of their population is trafficked. Is it possible that we have 350,000 Canadians trafficked in Canada, because that would be the same percentage that's in India? Is that happening here in Canada, to your best estimation?

[Diane Redsky]

I can answer this in terms of the work the national task force did in an online survey back in 2012. We asked 500 women's organizations—not shelters, but women's organizations—how many sexually exploited and trafficked women they served within their NGOs, their non-profit organizations, in 2012. Almost 300 of those organizations replied to the online survey. We did the math, added it all up, and there were more than 22,000. In comparison to that time, only 100, I believe, or a small number like that, were actually going through the court system.

There are lots of reasons for women not coming forward and why there are problems with data collection, but we can absolutely be doing better. We need to. The numbers are there. It is a hidden crime and not as obvious. Working on the front lines, at the grassroots level, we are overwhelmed. We are overwhelmed with what's going on and the normalization of how our children are being sexualized and targeted for the purposes of abuse and earning a profit.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I have a request for all of you after. But, I want Ms. Smith to just comment on the magnitude.

[Joy Smith]

I totally agree with what Diane says. One of the reasons that I think we have to be aware of is it is very hard for families and for victims to come forward. The way stats are taken, you really need—just what I said earlier—work together to get those stats really clear.

When you talk to front-line organizations, like Diane was referring to, and when I see the calls that come into my foundation, my gosh, we have lost some of them, we haven't recorded all of them. But that has to be married with the police reports, as well. There has to be more collaboration and co-operation working together. You would get a stronger number.

I totally agree with what Diane is saying. We are overrun. You listen to Donald, and he has told you he was a trafficker. It is huge. I bet you didn't know there was a whole hotel given over to human trafficking. Why? Because you're gentlemen and very concerned about family and everything, and that wasn't your world. There's a lot of people whose world it becomes, when you're underage, and it changes lives forever.

Maybe you say the math doesn't add up, but what doesn't add up to me is the lack of co-ordination between the non-government organizations, and the women's groups, people who are in the know.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Understand that when I'm saying the math doesn't add up, I'm saying we have to do better as government—

[Joy Smith]

Yes; we all do.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

—to use creative ways to go and get the data. We share the same issue when it comes to getting LGBTQ statistics. We don't have the right questions in the census. You can ask a family, “How many people are out?”, but what if two of your four kids are in the closet? You don't get those stats. You don't know where people are unless they self-identify.

Mr. Bouchard, it sounds like you know Calgary well, and you know Edmonton and Regina well. At any give time, in a city that we can relate to—pick your city of choice—how many traffickers are there and how many people are being trafficked?

[Donald Bouchard]

Well, I remember going to a players ball, where all the traffickers meet with their girls, and there were hundreds of people there.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

How many traffickers?

[Donald Bouchard]

Seventy-five, 100.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

How many women were being trafficked?

[Donald Bouchard]

The girls who get to go are the “high” call girls. You might get one girl—they want to bring their trophy with them—but then there could be three other girls who are on the streets and in so-called massage parlours.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Literally hundreds of women are being trafficked.

[Donald Bouchard]

Absolutely.

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

What is the ratio of women and girls versus men and boys, in your experience? Is it 90:10, or 95:5, or 80:20? What's the ratio?

[Donald Bouchard]

For men, from what it used to be to what it is now, it's probably tripled. I do drug counselling now with boys, and almost all of them were raped at a young age. They're very vulnerable to that.

I don't know anything about stats. I'm a front-line guy on the streets. For me, all these numbers are—

[Randy Boissonnault, Liberal, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So about two-thirds are women and one third are men?

[Donald Bouchard]

It's so hard to say right now. I've been out of this for so many years. Right now I just deal with individuals, with groups, and I do a lot of public speaking. The feedback I get is that we're probably heading to close to half and half, but it's a lot harder to discover the guys.