Justice Committee on March 27th, 2018

[Sherry Lacey]

Absolutely there's a need to go back and revisit the work that was done previously. Based on the information you're getting in some of these inquiries and discussions, I think it can be evaluated and compared against more current and recent feedback and information to inform making some changes to that strategy.

Part of our discussion at the coalition table is around the need for a national component, incorporating all provinces, all territories, and all communities as well, because we feel it is something we're seeing across the board.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

We'll now have short questions from members of the committee, please, and short answers. This is just to get questions out quickly and have you answer them as quickly as you reasonably can.

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

I want to follow up with Sergeant Laflamme and Ms. Mosley with respect to preliminary hearings.

You have recommended that they be done away with in order to minimize the revictimization of human trafficking victims. I asked the same question, about whether or not preliminary inquiries should be done away with, of a crown prosecutor in Edmonton who appeared before our committee last week. That crown prosecutor successfully prosecuted a major human trafficking case involving, I believe, 71 exploited workers. Her answer to me was that she found the preliminary inquiry essential to the successful prosecution of that individual. Part of the problem, she said, was that she had witnesses who were disappearing. If she had had to wait to go to trial, the witnesses she needed to get evidence from wouldn't have been available, compromising the likelihood of a successful prosecution.

I was just wondering if you might be able to comment on that, and I'd also just ask Sergeant Laflamme to comment on his experience with respect to the successful prosecution of several cases in Ottawa.

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

In terms of commenting on a trial in another jurisdiction that I'm not familiar with, I'm not quite sure I can really answer what my beliefs are with regard to that specific preliminary hearing.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I mean the underlying concern, which is that if you have to wait for trial, the preliminary inquiry provides a valuable opportunity to get evidence from witnesses early.

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

We frequently have victims we manage, who end up testifying in a preliminary hearing, and they're cross-examined by defence lawyers. They are treated, and demeaned, and feel belittled to the point where they are not in a position where they want to come back for the said trial. We have to contend with that on a pretty regular basis with respect to assisting those victims and trying to encourage them to come back. It happens quite frequently in our jurisdiction.

I don't think we've had a trial specifically of the magnitude you're referring to, but on a regular basis we have to deal with victims who decide they want to recant or who feel they're not treated as equals and not credible as witnesses. Therefore, as a result of that, they don't want to come back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming before us and giving your testimony.

On the road, we heard from various police forces and law enforcement agencies about their experience. From one police service, we heard that they had done an operation in which they posted online an advertisement for a minor, and received about 700 hits on that advertisement. However, not one of the people who were on that page called 911 to report the minor. We also heard a lot of testimony about violence against people in the industry, whether they're there by choice or not.

My question to you, Sergeant Laflamme, is basically this. What is the role of johns when it comes to providing training and awareness and really getting that buy-in from the public?

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

Would it be possible for you to rephrase that question? I'm not sure I understand what “the role of the john”, or what you're trying to—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

This is in terms of the person who is buying the sex. What is their role in terms of eliminating trafficking? We've heard there are different ends to the spectrum. There are people who are in this industry by choice, sex workers, but then there are also those who are coerced into it. The one thing in common for both of them is the person who is purchasing the service.

In terms of educating the person who is purchasing that service, what kind of training or awareness can be given to those people to ensure that they're not participating in something harmful?

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

Prior to the Bedford decision, we at the police service used to have prostitution sweeps. We would go out and basically, at that particular time, round up all of the sex trade workers, because they were on the streets providing sexual services. Then we would reintroduce our undercover officers and then arrest the johns. As a result of those, we would have john schools where there would be education sessions of I believe about five hours. It's a diversion program for somebody who is not a repeat offender.

With the example that you've given of an initiative that another police service has done, we're planning to undertake doing stuff like that. We're very much more focused at this point in establishing our unit. We anticipate doing somewhat of the same type of venture, but we're running into problems with the actual pictures being posted. You need someone's consent in order to post that picture. As a police service, you can't arbitrarily take a picture off the Internet without someone's consent.

At that particular point, I think we will most likely have a lot of success with regard to arresting the johns. The john school, for lack of a better term, is where we will be sending the males who are arrested, to a pre-charge diversion type of program. I know we're actually giving some lectures—as a matter of fact, tomorrow night. It's been a compiling of certain incidents that's necessitated us to have a john school. I believe it's the first one since the Bedford decision.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

How much do you collaborate with other police services, whether in the province or across Canada?

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

We work hand in hand with the Gatineau police service. As I alluded to earlier, they were a part of our initiative prior to the Grey Cup. There are trends where we see a lot of girls from the Quebec side, mainly the Montreal area, coming over to work in Ontario, simply because the supply and demand is different. What they can actually charge is higher in Ontario than on the Quebec side.

We have a great partnership with the Gatineau police service. We're in conversations, as we speak, to have an initiative with the OPP and the RCMP, as well, within the next couple of months. As a result of the success we had with the Grey Cup initiative, we're hopeful that we'll be asked to assist Montreal in their provincial task force during Formula One festivities in June. As recently as last week, I was in conversations with the Montreal police service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Does anyone else have any questions?

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the panel. I think everyone in this room has the same goal, and that is to assist those people who have been victimized by traffickers. To do that, one of the things, obviously, is that we all have to identify the victims and work with them.

From my perspective, to the social workers who are present, basically you have victims identified to you in some manner, whether you search the information out and identify them or whatever. Basically, they come to you. Would that be a fair assessment? I think that's basically it.

The police agencies, on the other hand, tend to be on the street and identify...as you indicated with the Grey Cup. They try to talk people into whatever it may be to give them assistance.

Would I be right in assuming that we could benefit everybody if we perhaps had more social workers on the street? I know what the police do, and I am 1,000% behind that, but we always end up with the police being seen, as the professor says, sometimes as the bad guy. I'm wondering if part of this equation is that we need more trained social people on the street.

That's to anyone.

[Jodi Mosley]

Right now we actually are going out and training. People are getting training all over the place. The coalition goes to Operation Come Home. We trained over there. We're starting a hotel initiative, and I'm at Carleton University next month with regard to 211 operators.

The thing is that there are not enough programs. Up until a few weeks ago, we were sending victims of trafficking out to B.C. from Ontario to have programs. In terms of beds, there are a few programs, one in Covenant House in Toronto. Now with initiatives in the funding, there are more, but what we're lacking is in services, completely.

So yes, we need more social workers on the street and we need more training, but we need more services.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

I'm a little biased, but the police have always been on the street dealing with all of those people, sometimes with little or no training but what they've learned on the street.

Sergeant, I'm wondering if you can tell us if your people have specific training. Also, is there a mix of males and females in your team?

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

We have four investigators, two female and two male, and everybody is fluently bilingual. We sit on a lot of steering committees and human trafficking committees with a lot of other social groups, and we share a lot of information. A lot of referrals come our way based on the committees that we sit on and the phone calls that we receive. We also teach at various different levels of courses within the police service, whether that be on a sexual assault response officer course or an initial course such as a general investigations techniques course. We're also teaching at the Canadian Police College, the Ontario Police College, and Criminal Intelligence Service Ontario.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Very good.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I have one brief question, Sergeant, if it's okay.

One of the things I heard as we were travelling the country, to come back to my colleague Ms. Khalid's question, was that people procuring sex—I won't signify that it's one sex or another, because even though it's mostly men buying it from mostly women, it could be either—could be the biggest allies in terms of identifying people who are being trafficked if purchasing sex weren't criminalized and people felt free to come forward and report what they were seeing. In the same way, women in the sex trade who we met with were telling us that they could be the biggest allies of police in the cities where they feel confident to talk to the police and point out underage women and people being trafficked.

I'd like to get commentary from you and also Dr. Benoit on whether or not that approach is a feasible approach—that is, to work with the people who are in this trade who are consenting, who are adults, to help identify people who are being compromised and being trafficked.

[Sgt Damien Laflamme]

I can give you a case in point. We worked with somebody who essentially wanted to remain anonymous, which is exactly the circumstance you provided. At that particular time, that individual actually was amorous of the sex trade worker and ultimately was jealous of any other clients who she was servicing. It was a somewhat extensive and exhaustive investigation to draw that conclusion. However, I think if prostitution were legalized, or there was some legitimacy of it, if you will, I'm not so sure we would have individuals coming forward to provide us with that. I think we concern ourselves with anybody who we feel, based on a number of cues, is being trafficked, or mainly is an underage girl. That's the focus we have.

We've seen countless investigations where johns are fully aware that this individual is underage, and nobody has been in a position where they've either called us or reported it. Unfortunately, that's the reality we're faced with. I don't want to sit here and sound very pessimistic, but with regard to anybody coming forward with that information, I guess there would need to be more extensive study done on that particular matter to confirm or corroborate whether somebody would or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you so much.

Dr. Benoit.

[Dr. Cecilia Benoit]

There have been studies of clients, including by some of my own colleagues here in Canada, and also a fairly large study of clients, or people who buy sexual services, in Sweden after purchasing was criminalized. Those people reported in those interviews that they were less likely to come forward with information about someone who was being forced into prostitution or being held against their will, of course with legitimate reasons; they feared they would be arrested for purchasing.

In Canada I think we have the same situation where people are now fearful to come forward. It's the same with people who operate an escort agency or a massage parlour. If they see something, it's very difficult for them to come forward at this point, given our law.

There could be practices even now where we give an amnesty for coming forward with information about illegal or especially human trafficking activity or a minor being involved in sexual exchange. I think clients and other third parties would be much more willing to come forward with information if they knew the justice system would not criminalize them. That would also be for sex workers themselves, of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Not seeing any more questions, I want to thank the panel for being here today.

Thank you, Dr. Benoit, for joining us from Victoria.

Have a wonderful rest of the day.

The meeting is adjourned.