Justice Committee on May 22nd, 2018

[Kara Gillies]

Yes, because we're now having to live and work in a context where all sex work is considered an inherent form of violence, when actual violence does occur, sadly the attitude is, “Well, that's what you signed up for.” That's what I'm speaking to, and it's something we see quite regularly.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Are police forces not charging that individual? Do they just shrug their shoulders at the woman—usually the woman—who's been assaulted?

[Kara Gillies]

Yes, except in cases where somebody is prepared to identify as being trafficked, which is where lies our concern about the focus and resources going into trafficking, because as I think we've heard some people say, unless you identify as being trafficked and unless that's the way you are forced to interpret it and present your experience, you're going to be denied access not just to police protections and the court process, but also to other social services, largely because at this point in time a lot of the funding that's directed to people who sell or trade sex is specifically for anti-trafficking initiatives.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Ms. Falle, one of the issues we have talked about at this committee, or one of the suggestions that's been made to us is that, if we go out of our way to try to identify the people, the institutions, or whoever are involved with trafficking of human beings, we'd be better off.

You indicated that the individual who was trafficking you is still around or he's in his business here. How would you feel about naming him?

[Natasha Falle]

He's Deveral Anthony Deerr. He's also known as Dobby.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much.

Did we get that for the record here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Yes, we did.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think that's important for these people who commit these types of crimes, and I know Ms. Perrin, you indicated somebody, and Ms. Perrier, if you want to give us the names of those people, we'd be glad to have them.

I truly believe that when publicity and focus is on these people who commit these disgusting crimes, we're all better off for it, so people know what they're getting involved with.

[Bridget Perrier]

My trafficker was organized crime. One of my traffickers is female. Her name is Sherry Taranien.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Perrin, did you want to name anyone?

[Lanna Perrin]

No, I don't think.... I never claimed to be a trafficked person.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Fair enough.

[Lanna Perrin]

I said that sometimes in the industry, especially as of late, people who are forced to work street-level sex work are often more vulnerable to be exploited and trafficked.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's what your colleague said, that sometimes when they are physically abused, it doesn't get reported.

Ms. Thomas, you heard the suggestion that the word “torture” be used in non-state violence against a person. You'd be completely familiar with the Criminal Code, the different provisions. What are your thoughts on that?

[Lori Anne Thomas]

My thoughts are that when you have those words, they seem to address the concern, but what you'll have is, I think, a defendant who will be less likely to take responsibility when the word torture is attached to the criminal offence.

It's the same with human trafficking. When you have those kinds of terms, even if the result is about the same.... I will say that whether it's prostitution in procuring or human trafficking, if there are similar elements, the actual sentence is about the same. The range is not that much different, but when you add those words, I can let you know that the defendants tend to have a mental block trying to take that responsibility because, unfortunately, when I'm speaking about males—and I'm not speaking about the females who have been prostitutes or sex workers—who are completely taking advantage and receiving money without providing any protection or anything like that, they don't necessarily see themselves as the bad guy. That may be different from what everybody else in the public does, but they don't see themselves that way, so you will essentially have to have a trial, and that again takes the burden on the crown to a higher level to get to the level of torture.

In my submission, I can see the concerns echoed by my friends here, but I do think that would be more of a hindrance to them taking responsibility and pleading guilty.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nicholson.

[Jeanne Sarson]

I just would like to quote the Supreme Court of Queensland, Australia on the case R. v. HAC. This was a case of a husband who was found guilty of torturing his wife, and they did make the distinction. They found that he tortured her for six months, so he was found guilty of the torturing and sentenced to 10 years for the torture, two years for the assault, five years for the rape, and was declared a serious offender.

I just believe that, if they can do this in Australia, if they have the capacity to distinguish between crimes, we Canadians surely have the capacity to do that here in Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you.

Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I'm going to start with Ms. Falle and Ms. Perrier.

First, I want to clarify your comments regarding the Liberal Party convention. The resolutions of the convention are not government policy and they're not binding in any way on the government.

You seem to be quite opposed to the position of the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform. I believe the alliance wants us to decriminalize all sex-related work or services so that we can focus more clearly on human trafficking, violence, coercion, and so forth. You, however, want us to go the other way to more heavily enforce anti-sex work or anti-sex service, whatever you want to call it, and, by that means, stop human trafficking. These seem to be opposite approaches.

Do you see any value at all in decoupling the sex trade, if you will, from the human trafficking circumstances?

[Natasha Falle]

No, I don't.

In fact, I know first-hand that sex worker-led organizations that promote prostitution as a viable job option put victims of human trafficking at a greater risk. It is detrimental to their health, their safety, and their well-being. They are exposed to pimps in their organization, pimps who they have aligned with and who they refer to as bodyguards and managers. I believe that without prostitution we would not have sex trafficking.

I'm surprised to see them on this panel today because, for the most part, they deny the magnitude of the issue of human trafficking in this country. I am triggered by their content. Much of it sounds like the conditioning and the brainwash that I received by the other women who were being sold by the pimps, whether they be the escort agency pimps, the strip club owner pimps, gang pimps, or solo pimps. It's all the same game.

In that industry we are led to believe that we should not trust the police, when in fact, many of us have had very positive experiences working with the police. By throwing them all in that same bracket, it undermines our good experiences. It's almost like a silencing tactic that we are used to.

We're often bullied by sex worker organizations on Twitter. You can go on our pages and see it for yourselves. We're often bullied. We have been told that we have rape fantasies by sex worker-led organizations.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I don't see that they're lumping everyone together in the same basket. They're saying there are sex-trafficked people who are human trafficked, but there are others who are not—

[Natasha Falle]

Yes, but—

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

—that they're not one and the same thing.

[Bridget Perrier]

It took me a good eight years out of prostitution to realize that I had been trafficked.

When we're talking about youth, and you throw a couple of hundred dollars at them, that's exploitation. To say that youth can sell sex and be youth sex workers, to me, is like saying that your worth—