Justice Committee on March 10th, 2020

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I think we will have aggregate statistics about the number of judges who have been trained. We will be comfortable in the knowledge that newly appointed judges will be trained. We will have extrinsic evidence such as other provinces taking on training schemes within their jurisdiction for provincially appointed judges. Hopefully, we'll see in the reporting of decisions and in the popular media's reporting of the reporting of the decisions that these kinds of cases will not continue or will be much more isolated. I think all those factors will point to success.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

You have 30 seconds.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

To follow up on that, I understand it's a difficult question due to judicial independence but there'll be no monitoring or complaints system that we would look at to see whether insensitivities occurred in the courtroom?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It's up to judges to train their cohort. That's part of the principle of judicial independence. We can look at reported decisions as other jurists or other people in the system and the media will do that too.

All those parts of our functioning justice system will perform their roles, and I'm confident we will get to a better place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

Mr. Zuberi, you have three minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Minister, thank you for being here.

You talked a little bit about the importance of judicial diversification and how it can help achieve the objectives of Bill C-5.

We're having a number of witnesses from different backgrounds, including indigenous backgrounds, people who are black, south Asian and from other communities. Can you speak a bit to how diversification of the bench could help with the spirit of Bill C-5?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First of all, in diversification of the bench, we've put into place a transparent system for naming judges with judicial appointment committees that are rigorously both trying to attract diverse candidates to apply and then analyzing their candidacies. Hopefully a fair number of people will pass that stage and then be eligible for appointments.

On a personal level, everywhere I go across Canada, at virtually every speaking engagement I have had since becoming minister, I try to get people both to apply to the bench and to apply to the judicial appointment committees because, for a lawyer who hasn't been out for 10 years, it's critically important that they consider doing volunteer work on the judicial appointments committee to attract good, diverse candidates. Diversity helps in that bond. When one sees oneself represented in the legal system, on the bench among the other judicial actors, one sees, I think, a shared experience is possible and therefore it creates a bond between the person on this side of the bench and the person on the other side of the bench. I think that's critical to the legitimacy of the system.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much for that answer.

Second of all, we are told that the majority of sexual assault cases are dealt with outside of where this legislation will be touching, basically within the provincial courts.

Can you speak a bit more to how you have spoken with your counterparts on the provincial side? How they can enact legislation similar to Bill C-5?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Minister, you have 20 seconds to answer.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

All right.

I wrote letters and started a discussion with my counterparts across Canada. It is also by setting an example that we set the tone, and by setting the tone, I sincerely believe that we can encourage them to see if they can do something similar, even if it is not necessarily the same thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Maguire, you're up for three minutes.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the minister for being here.

I mentioned Ms. Ambrose's former bill, Bill C-337 to the justices this morning. When it was studied in the committee before, the federal ombudsman for victims of crime put forward a lot of recommendations. With only one of 20 victims of sexual assault coming forward...that's part of this bill, to look at the credibility of why we don't have more people coming forward and the confidence in the system. They even went so far as to say there would be a huge gap if at least some of the recommendations of the ombudsman weren't put in the new bill.

Can you outline if any of those were accepted?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We took the previous bill, Bill C-337, as amended in the Senate as our base to move forward because we had unanimous consent for that bill in the last Parliament. We thought this was a good starting point. That being said, we will look at what the ombudsman has to suggest. Obviously, the point of view of victims in here is critically important, again, as you have said, to the confidence in the system. I think that's absolutely right. Making sure that a system doesn't revictimize victims, making sure there is a sensitive dialogue between actors within the system when sexual assault cases are being dealt with is critically important to moving forward, so we will listen carefully to what she has to say.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Minister.

I understand that none of those.... I couldn't find them anyway, so I wonder if that might be something to look at.

When you brought Bill C-5 forward and in drafting it, did you meet with any of the survivor groups and include any of their recommendations?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I have met with survivor groups in a number of jurisdictions across Canada since I was appointed just over a year ago. I've heard what they have had to say. They will inform not only this piece of legislation but hopefully other pieces of legislation as we move forward.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Can you outline some of the things you may have heard from them that are included?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

There is—and Mr. MacGregor alluded to this—in particular a lack of support for people as they move through the process. I think that's the single most important comment that I heard time and time again.

It is mainly provincial jurisdiction, because the administration of justice is provincial, but we're working with our provincial counterparts. There are a number of very interesting proposals. I think of my home jurisdiction, Quebec, which has organisms called CAVACs, which help and accompany victims of sexual assault through these various processes. We, obviously, need to be working with the provinces to have more of those kinds of supports for victims of sexual assault.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Minister Lametti.

We are moving on to Mr. Sangha. I believe you're sharing some time with Mr. Kelloway.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for coming today to our committee.

It's very clear that we as legislators want to preserve the constitutional principle of judicial independence. We have heard here today Justice Kent and Justice MacDonald. They were very concerned about maintaining judicial independence.

At this time, we find that the judicial committee has to give a report to the minister, submit a report regarding the training.

Don't you think that this is one step we are taking toward diminishing the independence of the judiciary? If not, then what is the purpose of this reporting?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I share the concern around the table that it is fundamental that we maintain judicial independence in our system, and I respect that principle. It's part of my DNA.

We're trying to achieve a delicate balance here. We are trying to make sure that judges who hear sexual assault cases have the appropriate degree of training and also that they are accountable. Your question really touches on the accountability.

The gathering of statistics, as has been pointed out, in an innominate fashion—so people's names won't be attached and we won't be able to identify judges—still helps in seeing how successful we are in making sure that the bench is well trained generally. It allows us to say, okay, we're doing well and we don't need to go further. It may allow us down the road to say maybe we're not doing enough and ask if there is another way we could ensure that judges are better trained or the bench could be better prepared. It just helps us as an accounting matter.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Minister, and thanks to the previous witnesses.

As a person who works with a lot of front-line organizations back home in Cape Breton—Canso, I'm curious as to what you can tell me about the experiences of front-line organizations and how they might be able to inform training that the organizations in question are looking to implement here. I'm interested in your take on that.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First of all, those front-line organizations have a great deal to say. I've gone across the country and spoken to a number of them. It is moving and inspiring to see what people are doing in the field.

Hopefully, through the consultation process, we'll be able to nudge people toward the CJC, and the CJC will meet and consult with people who are front-line workers. Hopefully, that will have a positive impact in the process as we move forward.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you. You have—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Sorry, that's it for your time.

Mr. Fortin, you have one minute, please.