Justice Committee on Oct. 15th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Absolutely. The meeting is now suspended for two minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I'll give a 30-second warning to everybody so we can stay on track with out first committee on justice and human rights.

Mr. Virani, you asked for the suspension. Have you come back with clarity?

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Yes. I'm happy to proceed with voting on Mr. Moore's motion as it stands.

Thank you very much for the indulgence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks so much for that, Mr. Virani.

Mr. Moore, is there anything else that you would like to say in closing?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

No, that's great. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

So, are we doing a recorded vote or would we just unanimously agree? Does anybody want to indicate?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

We could save time if everyone agrees.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Do we all agree, folks?

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

It looks as though we're all in agreement. That's wonderful.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you so much, Mr. Moore, for putting that forward.

I'm going to call for any other committee business that anybody would like to propose.

Mr. Maloney, I see your hand raised.

[James Maloney, Liberal, Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON]

Sorry, I didn't take my hand down.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Okay.

Mr. Sangha.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to move a motion regarding neglect of seniors by caregivers, and elder abuse. Am I permitted to move a motion now? Can I read it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I think we are in committee business, so you are absolutely within your rights to move forward with that motion. Would you like to read it out for everybody, please?

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I move, “That pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee study the issue of elder abuse including the insufficiency of current laws in fighting elder abuse...explicitly penalizing those who neglect seniors under their care and how to more effectively combat elder abuse.”

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that, Mr. Sangha.

Does anybody want to speak to this?

Mr. Virani, I see your hand raised.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I think Mr. Sangha has raised an important point. I think it really reflects some of the learning we've had in the wake of the pandemic that we are all living through right now. This is not something that was a particular focus of the committee in the first go-round, in the first session of this Parliament. The pandemic, as we've experienced it, has taught us a little bit about the vulnerabilities in exposing some of the vulnerabilities of people in the Canadian population. I don't think it's surprising to say that if there's been a particular tragedy, a single tragedy, in respect of how all levels of government have responded, it has been in respect of seniors and elderly people in care, such as in long-term care facilities, be it private facilities, not-for-profit facilities, or entirely public facilities.

I think you saw hallmarks of this when you saw the language that was used in the throne speech following prorogation. Specific commitments were made and announced by the government in respect of seniors—things like national standards for the care of seniors in institutions, in long-term care homes. We are members of the justice committee. We understand jurisdiction and the division of powers perhaps better than others. But it is not lost on us that while the delivery of health care services and the care, in the first instance, is provided by people at the local level who are governed by their provincial authorities, there is nevertheless a role for the federal government to play in imposing and creating and setting out standards and best practices for what that care should look like. Indeed, that's what I've heard from Canadians in terms of my outreach during the pandemic, not only in my riding but around the country.

There was another specific component mentioned in the throne speech. That was simply the commitment announced by the government to address amendments to the Criminal Code with respect to those who would neglect seniors in their care. What that looks like and how that would be done obviously requires some finessing and requires some thought and analysis. I think when you're talking about a Criminal Code amendment with regard to the neglect of seniors, that is right within the purview and the proper scope of what the justice committee does as its bread-and-butter work.

The proposal by Mr. Sangha is a very sound one, I think, insofar as it provides us with an opportunity to undertake a study that will actually help feed into something that has already been identified as a priority, not just by the government but I think likely by all parliamentarians and by all parties, given what we've all experienced from coast to coast to coast in this country, and what we've all observed. I say this with some measure of direct understanding. We know that Ontario was particularly hard hit by this issue—as was Quebec, in fairness. When the armed forces are called in to assist in these homes and they report back, in quite telling and pointed commentary and criticism, about what they observed, we know there's a time to act, and that time is now. Proposing to do a study of this nature will help feed into that important action that I think we as parliamentarians need to be taking at this point in time.

I want to offer my strong support for the motion of Mr. Sangha.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much for that, Mr. Virani.

I have Mr. Kelloway, Mr. Garrison and then Monsieur Fortin.

Go ahead, Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

I really want to thank my colleague for putting this motion forward. In another life, I worked a fair bit with seniors. I worked on putting together a seniors college in Cape Breton and worked at different levels of community development. My work last year on the health committee really opened my eyes to the importance of adhering to values that are inherently Canadian and humanistic—that is, ensuring that we protect and look after our elders, our seniors, from coast to coast to coast.

I really find this motion exceptionally profound in doing that. These are values of ensuring that we look after and protect those who have given our country so much—so much—that we as a committee need to do everything humanly possible to ensure that all steps are taken to prevent elder abuse in any form or fashion.

I really commend and congratulate the member for putting this forward. It has my full support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much for your intervention, Mr. Kelloway.

I have Mr. Garrison next on my list.

Go ahead, Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I too want to thank Mr. Sangha for bringing this very important issue to the attention of our committee. I am very concerned about conditions in long-term care, particularly in for-profit homes. I think it deserves our consideration.

What I would like to do, though, at this point, is move to refer this motion and any other motions that are tabled today, or put with the chair by Monday at 5 p.m., to the next meeting of our steering committee so that we can examine how to find expeditious ways to deal with this very important question and the other business of the committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks for that, Mr. Garrison.

While I seek clarity on your request, we'll go to Monsieur Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, we are clearly all in favour of the principle to protect seniors, be it in Quebec or elsewhere in Canada. I think that goes without saying, and there is no discussion to be had on that. However, we have to be careful. We are elected for certain areas of jurisdiction, and we cannot exceed them. Our sandbox, if I may put it that way, consists of issues that come under federal jurisdiction.

Mr. Virani was earlier talking about amendments to the Criminal Code. If that's about discussing the possibility of creating some penalty or an amendment to the Criminal Code, we can look into it. However, establishing standards applicable to seniors across the country is a provincial responsibility. It is up to Quebec and each Canadian province to do that. I don't think we can meddle in that area by trying to establish such standards, and you will understand that I will definitely disagree with it.

I don't disagree with having standards to protect our seniors, but that comes under the jurisdiction of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia and each individual province, and not the federal government.

Respected colleagues, I ask you to be very careful when we discuss those issues. We all love our parents, grandparents and our seniors, and we want to protect them all—that is not the issue—but our work as members is limited to jurisdictions that come under the federal government. We must be careful and respect provinces on this matter.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much for that, Monsieur Fortin.

I now have clarity from “the” MOG, who is our clerk. I call him Mr. MOG because he's the greatest of all time.

My understanding, Mr. Garrison, is that you cannot make a motion to move that debate into the steering committee, because we have the motion presented by Mr. Sangha on the floor currently. It is a substantive motion, and we need to deal with that before we deal with yours. One way we can deal with that is to adjourn debate on Mr. Sangha's motion. Then we can reignite it at our subcommittee and come forward with a decision on how we're going to deal with Mr. Sangha's motion at the next committee meeting.

Is that something we would all be in agreement with? I take Monsieur Fortin's points about just how sensitive this is and his concerns about jurisdiction and how we can move forward. If I have agreement from all of you that this is what to do, then we will move this conversation to the subcommittee, make determinations and then come back at our next justice meeting to vote on or to determine how to dispose of Mr. Sangha's motion.

Just give me a thumbs-up if you all agree.

Wonderful. That's great.

With that, I see the clock. Our committee time has ended, unfortunately, for the day. We'll be in touch with respect to the subcommittee as well as the next committee.

With that, the meeting is adjourned.