Justice Committee on Nov. 24th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

I have another point of clarification.

I thought it was possible to subamend an amendment. It seems rather too late for a subamendment if we've already voted on an amendment. If Mr. Moore is suggesting a subamendment, I thought that would be an appropriate thing to do from the floor.

[The Clerk]

Yes, Madame Findlay.

We have the amendment from Mr. Virani that was sent on November 23. So that's the main—

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Right.

Then Mr. Moore was just now suggesting a subamendment to take out the words “when appropriate” from that suggested amendment.

[The Clerk]

Right, but there was—

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Is that not possible?

[The Clerk]

It is not, because there is another subamendment already on the floor, to change the wording from “should” to “must, when appropriate”. This one has to be dealt with first. After that, if this one is defeated, Mr. Moore could move his to simply put “must” instead of what's there at the moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Thériault now.

Go ahead, sir.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

My question is for the legal experts from the Department of Justice.

In the Criminal Code, is it common to manage relations between departments, and as in this case, to include provisions requiring a minister to consult another minister?

We are talking about the federal level, but do the territories and provinces, as well as Quebec, also have this obligation when it comes to ministers or persons with equivalent responsibilities?

How is this section appropriate in a criminal code?

[Joanne Klineberg]

Thank you for your question.

As I mentioned a few minutes ago, I don't think it's about identifying the legislation in which this type of obligation is included. In the Criminal Code, obligations for ministers to create regulations are rare, but there are a few instances.

From what I understand from my colleagues in drafting, there are obligations requiring ministers to create regulations or to consult with other ministers. That's quite frequent. They found several examples related to the obligation of ministers to consult with others. To my knowledge, there are no others in the Criminal Code, but I do not think that compromises the validity of such an obligation, whether it is in the Criminal Code or in any other piece of legislation.

I don't see why this would affect provincial ministers. For that to be the case, the words would need to be more explicit.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Would ministers who might not consult even though the Criminal Code provides for such a collaborative relationship find themselves in a particularly uncomfortable situation? What would happen?

[Joanne Klineberg]

That's a good question.

We sometimes wonder the same thing about the obligations of Parliament to have a parliamentary review. What if that doesn't happen?

This particular amendment is not tied to an offence in the Criminal Code. The obligation of the Minister of Health to create the monitoring system regulations is not tied to an offence in the Criminal Code either.

It's an interesting question, but I'm not sure whether my answer is very clear at this point. We could do some research and get back to you on that.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you for your answer, Ms. Klineberg.

These are the questions I had, because my colleagues' arguments and justifications about the need to include this type of provision in the Criminal Code did not answer my questions. I saw no additional benefits, but I wondered whether it would not bring additional constraints.

Thank you for shedding some light nonetheless.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

I see no further discussion. I'll call the vote on the subamendment as read into the record by the legislative clerk and as proposed by Mr. Maloney.

Mr. Clerk, please record the vote.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Madam Chair, since we do not have the text and we are proceeding right away, can we hear it again, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Absolutely.

Please go ahead, sir.

[The Clerk]

I will start with the English version: “(6) In performing his or her functions or duties under subsection (3), the Minister of Health must, when appropriate, consult with the minister responsible for the status of persons with disabilities.”

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Clerk.

(Subamendment agreed to: yeas 9; nays 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Mr. Moore, I see your hand raised on PV-4 as amended.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the departmental officials as well as to the clerk for the advice in this regard.

Now that this particular subamendment has been adopted, I would like to move an amendment that deletes the words “when appropriate”. For all the reasons that we heard—I won't ask them to repeat it, but Justice officials said we would not normally see the word “should” in the Criminal Code—I do not believe we should see a “when appropriate”. We don't tell someone to obey the speed limit “when appropriate” or not to rob a bank “when appropriate”.

In the Criminal Code or regulatory principles, we would not inject certainty into the clauses we're dealing with if we were to include the words “when appropriate”, because, as I mentioned before, the person who would be determining whether they “should” or “shouldn't” do something would be the same individual or group of individuals determining whether something is inappropriate or appropriate.

I don't know whether you call it a sub-subamendment, but my amendment to this amendment is to remove the words “when appropriate”.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

It would still be called a subamendment to the amended PV-4.

Madame Findlay, I see that your hand is raised. Go ahead.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Is this the time to speak to the subamendment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, absolutely. Go ahead.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Basically, as I understand the wording now, in English it would be “In performing his or her functions or duties under this section, the Minister of Health must, when appropriate, consult with the minister responsible for the status of persons with disabilities.”

Taking out “when appropriate” leaves it as “must”. It is in the carrying out of their duties, so we are not fettering their discretion, really. We're not constricting the exercise of their ministerial duties. We're saying that in the course of those duties, as they perform those duties, they must consult with those who have the responsibility of thinking about, determining policy about and handling the issues surrounding persons with disabilities.

We've heard from this community loud and clear in this committee. There are many more who wanted to speak. I wear a pin today that is in commemoration of the fact that this is indigenous persons with disabilities month—a group we didn't really hear from, although we heard from persons with disabilities organizations on a grander scale.

I really think this is something that should be done; it seems very appropriate. I think we're all, in terms of the spirit of this, on the same page. It's cleaner; it's neater and more succinct—something Mr. Virani is in favour of generally—and I think these are two ministers who should be consulting on these issues.

Taking out “when appropriate” makes a lot of sense, and I would urge others to support this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Madame Findlay.

Just before I call the question, I'll turn to the legislative clerk to read the language of the subamendment.

[The Clerk]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The amendment, with the new subamendment, would read as follows: “(6) In performing his or her functions or duties under subsection (3), the Minister of Health must consult with the minister responsible for the status of persons with disabilities.”