Justice Committee on Dec. 1st, 2020

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Well, cases are built in the usual way. There is an investigation, based on either a complaint or on other information through the police, and it goes through the prosecution service, which is either the provincial or the federal Crown, depending. It is completely independent, as we have independent prosecution services in most provinces. Thanks to my predecessor Rob Nicholson, we have an independent prosecution service at the federal level, which I also support.

We don't have very accurate statistics—we've said this before publicly—about conversion therapy, because so much of it happens in the shade. A number of studies indicate that it is a widespread practice in Canada and that it is having a significant, destructive impact on the LGBTQ2 community in Canada, and therefore we're acting.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

In that vein—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

My apologies, Madame Findlay, but we're out of time.

We'll go on to the next round for five minutes.

Mr. Sangha, your time starts now, sir. Go ahead.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Minister Chagger. Minister, there are hundreds upon hundreds of heartbreaking testimonies from young and older men about their journey through and eventually out of conversion therapy. These stories tell of the devastating consequences of the practice of this therapy, which range from depression to suicidal thoughts. In fact, the interim result of the 2019-20 survey shows that sexual orientation, gender identity and depression changes, at first, are affecting this.

The bill before us is perhaps one of the most progressive pieces of legislation by any government to ban, criminalize and eliminate these deplorable activities, and it was about time.

However, Minister, let me ask you one question: How confident are you that this legislation is really what is needed at this time to tackle the practice of conversion therapy?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, through you, Madam Chair, to the member for the question.

I would like to begin by saying that I was very pleased to see that every single member of this committee, from every single party, voted in favour of Bill C-6 in the House, and having it sent to committee. I'm hopeful that we will continue to work together to send this bill back to the House in short order. What this shows is that we all agree that any systematic effort to change someone's sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression, in particular that of a child, is unacceptable in our communities and should be criminalized.

The bill we have here does exactly that, and lays the foundation for the elimination of this harmful and destructive practice in our country. I know there is still a lot of work to do when it comes to getting LGBTQ2 Canadians to a place where they can live out their lives freely, like most Canadians do, without the threat of violence or discrimination. As the minister responsible for inclusion, and as an ally, I will continue to work with LGBTQ2 communities and lead our government's commitment to stand up for LGBTQ2 rights. LGBTQ2 rights are human rights.

I would say in a short answer to the member that I'm very confident that this is an essential step to building a consciously inclusive Canada.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I really agree with you on all these things. Morally, it's not good to have these types of conversion therapies.

Can you leverage more on the moral aspect of the bill, and who is included in this law to be considered?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

The way I look at this, and based on the conversations I've had, in Canada I want all individuals to be their authentic selves and to be contributing members of society. I want individuals to be proud of who they are. Unfortunately, with the practice of conversation therapy, that is not the case.

The way I see this legislation is that if an individual is looking to explore their identity and discover who they are, and you're helping them on that journey in a supportive way, it's entirely acceptable. If an individual is looking to explore their identity and who they are, and you are forcing them to be something or someone they are not, it is unacceptable and does not belong in Canada.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Minister, do you think this bill against conversion therapy will bring some changes to the morality of the people who want to do this and who are going for conversion therapy? Are they going to be morally taught not to do this thing, that it's not good in society?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Consenting adults who want to are not.... They will get to make their choices as adults. What I think we are trying to get to is allowing every individual to be proud of who they are. An individual usually is trying to satisfy those around them, and therefore is considering conversion therapy because they think they can change who they are, but you are who you are, and you are absolutely perfect the way you are.

I think my morals and my values actually are about lifting individuals to be their true selves in every single quality and every single expression they provide. For people who are having the conversation on their morals, I think those are individual conversations, and that's why we are making sure that all rights are being protected, including LGBTQ2 rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Those were all my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Sangha.

We will now go to Monsieur Fortin, for two and half minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's not that I don't appreciate your answers, Ms. Chagger, but I wanted more specifically to address a number of points of law with Mr. Lametti.

Mr. Lametti, I remain puzzled about an unfortunate definition of conversion therapy, in which what is excluded appears to be the same thing as what is included. When we speak about what is prohibited, there is no grey area between the concepts of "against their will" and "minors".

And yet, conversion therapy is defined as follows:

...a practice, treatment or service designed to change a person’s sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender, or to repress or reduce...attraction...

Added to this is:

... this definition does not include a practice, treatment or service that relates (a) to a person’s gender transition; (b) to a person’s exploration of their identity or to its development.

What distinction do you make, on the one hand between the statement "change a person’s sexual orientation to heterosexual or gender identity to cisgender, or to repress or reduce...attraction" and the concept of "gender transition"? Is this not saying one thing and its opposite?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Gender transition is among the therapies recognized by the medical profession and health experts, and these therapies are recognized by the provincial systems.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting you, but I have only two minutes.

And yet the "against their will" concept is used. This is not a discussion about a service requested by a consenting adult. It says that it will be an offence if a person or a minor is made to undergo therapy "against their will".

It also says that practices, treatments or services pertaining to gender transition will be permitted. Is this really the intent?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It does not apply to legitimate practices in which a person is exploring conversion therapy or wishing to undergo gender transition.

The aim is to cover the "against their will" aspect for adults. However, for minors, the key issue is the idea of "normality". In other words, practices or services that aim at changing a person's orientation because they are not heterosexual.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

May I interrupt you, Minister?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

My apologies, Mr. Fortin. You're out of time.

We'll go on to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to turn to a question that many in the community have been asking about this bill, and that is whether it adequately covers the practices that are sometimes directed at people who have a different gender expression than others. While the bill is quite clear on the traditional attempts to convert or change someone's sexual orientation, when it comes to gender identity and gender expression, there is a concern that the bill does not capture the full extent of those questions.

I would be happier if the bill used language consistent with Bill C-16, which specifically protects gender identity and gender expression. I wonder if the minister can tell me if he does believe that gender expression is covered by the bill as written.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We thought it was, but you rightly point out Bill C-16 and the difference in language in there. I would be open to suggestions from the committee if you feel that we didn't adequately harmonize those two definitions.

We do think gender expression ought to be included. In an ideal world, the language would be consistent, so we're open to an amendment in that regard.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Minister. I guarantee you'll get one.

My last question is for Minister Chagger.

Passing a law that bans conversion therapy of course doesn't really address the trauma experienced by survivors. I wonder if there are any specific plans for her ministry to provide funding to the community to help provide programming to address the trauma of survivors of conversion therapy.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

That's what the action plan and survey are all about. They are opportunities to contribute, for us to....

What I have gained from my conversations with members of communities is that there are certain harms that we're not going to be able to undo, but we need to try and we need to make sure that the next generation does not have to undergo this. That's why we will continue consulting and working with communities. This legislation was informed and developed by communities. That's why I think it is quite powerful.

I once again will thank Minister Lametti for actually recognizing the discrepancy between this and Bill C-16 from a former government and for making sure that we do include that. Yes, let's work together to make sure that we are consciously building inclusivity in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Than you to both ministers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We will now go to Mr. Moore for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.