Thank you.
I'm getting more confused as we're going along here. In answer to Monsieur Fortin's question on gender expression, I believe Ms. Levman answered based on gender identity. Those are two different things. I think this is the struggle here at the moment with LIB-1, as you were referring to it, Madam Chair.
Again, Ms. Levman used the expression “the definition” and yet confirmed to me that there is no definition in the Criminal Code of Canada. It's getting confusing to me because we're conflating two or three different issues. Right now, LIB-1 is before us, as I understand it, and that has to do with gender expression, something that is already spoken to in the Criminal Code and human rights legislation, but is not defined, as has been confirmed.
Also, in the earlier response from Ms. Levman to my question—this is what I think I was talking about, because time's going by here between my ability to follow up—she used a phrase along the lines of “ordinary use” or something like that. This is what the struggle is here. “Gender expression” is very broad. We heard that from testimony from several witnesses. As someone who has to vote on this, I myself am not clear on exactly how much that captures under criminal sanction now. When Ms. Levman spoke to “ordinary use”, I don't believe there is an ordinary use of that term. I'm open to hearing from others about it, including my friend Mr. Garrison, on what the ordinary use of the term is. From what I'm hearing from Monsieur Fortin, what I feel myself and what I've heard from witnesses, there is confusion about what that would encompass.
There has been a lot of reference here back to the testimony of Minister Lametti in the beginning of our deliberations here. As I pointed out before, one of the first things the minister said when he spoke to this bill was that there seems to be confusion about the scope of this bill. It is up to the government, with their own legislation, to remove that confusion. This is exactly why we're struggling with very broad definitions, for which now the proposal is to expand those definitions and make them even broader. To my mind, that makes them even more confusing and harder to pin down.
I don't know if Ms. Levman has more she wants to say to explain to me what she meant by “ordinary use”, but I'm open to hearing it.