Justice Committee on Feb. 16th, 2021

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Even more so, in terms of gun violence—as we've heard from Ms. Dhillon a lot of gun violence happens, whether it's threatening gun violence or others—would having coercive and controlling behaviour as a crime help prevent much more abusive behaviour, because usually it's a prelude to behaviour that's going to come much later that is much more violent, even worse?

[Julie Matthews]

I think that it would, yes.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Ms. Walker, on the same notion, I know you've asked for a broader group of legislation and you've also asked about enforcement. I've done a little work in criminal and family law, mostly assisting my colleague and not done it myself. One of the problems is enforcement. It varies province to province in how much funding and resources the Crown and the police agencies have. Do you think this legislation would prevent further, more egregious violence that might come?

[Megan Walker]

I think we need to remember that this is good legislation. We know that abuse against women is a pattern of behaviour, and on the flip side, that may be what makes it very difficult to enforce. It's not a single incident; it's a pattern of behaviour that repeats itself over time. Also, this legislation would rely exclusively on the woman's testimony or the woman's input to see this through to a charge and perhaps ultimately a conviction.

I also want to reiterate that I think we need to load the tool box with as many tools as are at our disposal to ensure that when it's time to charge or time to help a woman, we can dig deep and get those tools to help them.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Dhillon, in your situation, it obviously started immediately. There wasn't time for such behaviour...as you indicated.

With a lot of women—you've probably studied this a lot in your social work—do you think this would be preventative legislation, so that women don't get into those more severe levels of abuse when a pattern of coercive behaviour can be identified early?

[Kamal Dhillon]

Definitely.

We need more education. We need ongoing education, I'd say at the school level. One of the things we have heard is, whatever I learned, I learned in kindergarten—and even in homes.

I look at our spiritual places, our temples, our churches. These are places that can also facilitate workshops such as this. People who bring in their mindset and their cultural values need to be educated here on what the laws are. When they are bringing up their boys and girls in two different ways, we are able to show them the proper way to bring up the children, and to show them respect. Respect begins at home.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

I'll pass my time to the next witness. I won't have enough time to ask and hear the response.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thanks very much, Mr. Sarai.

We'll go now to Monsieur Fortin for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will go back to Ms. Dhillon, if I may.

Ms. Matthews was saying that Bill C-247 would be a kind of additional tool in the fight against domestic violence. However, we already have criminal offences.

For example, you mentioned in your testimony that your husband threatened you with a gun. You understood that, if anything like that happened again, you could die. You were beaten and kidnapped by your husband, who did not let you leave the house. Those acts per se are already criminal. Assault, violence, threats and kidnapping are already offences in the Criminal Code.

How do you believe that creating another offence of domestic violence could change anything?

How could that have changed your situation if a section in the Criminal Code said that domestic violence is prohibited? Could the situation not still have happened in the same way?

[Kamal Dhillon]

I think if I had been believed.... Even when I showed the police the gun, my husband sweet-talked them. I wasn't a credible witness. They told me that I was very hyper.

I don't know what the new laws will be, but I think whether it's new laws or old laws, you have to start taking victims seriously. We stop reporting abuse because we're never taken seriously. We're not believed.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

To be believed....

I understand. I am sorry for rushing you, Ms. Dhillon. Once again, I don't want to be impolite, but I only have 30 seconds left.

In your opinion, how did your husband become a violent man? I assume that you will agree that not all men are violent. I hope so, anyway. Personally, I don't think I am. What makes a man like your husband conduct himself in that way with you? Do you have any idea? Are you able to put your finger on the reason he was like that?

[Kamal Dhillon]

He kept getting away with it. He was more believable than I was.

Yes, abuse isn't just against women. There are very good men out there. There are male victims as well.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

We are at the end of our round of questions. Thank you very much to the witnesses. I really appreciate the honesty, candour and passion in how you've delivered your remarks today.

Ms. Dhillon, thank you so very much for sharing your personal story. None of us had a dry eye as we heard all of the impact and all that you faced during this. Thank you very much. I really appreciate that.

Just very quickly, I have something to address with the members before we adjourn for the day.

Members, as we go into the conclusion of this study and the beginning of our next study, I just want to advise you that on February 23, after we've concluded all of our witnesses for the meeting, will be draft instructions for committee members to give to analysts on this specific report.

In the second hour, we'll start our COVID and the justice system report. We will continue to speak about some of the challenges we're having.

I would like to remind all members that your witnesses for the COVID and the justice system delays study are due by the end of today, as I've said in the past number of meetings, so that we give our witnesses enough notice to prepare before they come to committee meetings.

With that, I thank all members for running a very efficient meeting, and to all of our witnesses for everything you have contributed. Thank you all very much.

The meeting is adjourned.