Justice Committee on June 22nd, 2021

[Kim Campbell]

I think [Technical difficulty—Editor] out in some extreme area of judicial thinking you might not want to appoint them, but I think the biggest concern I had when I was minister of justice.... As I said, I was the minister in Mr. Mulroney's government, but I don't know what Rosalie Abella's partisan view was. I appointed a lot of interesting people and had no idea what their partisan view was, or if they even had one.

The important things are competence and character, the willingness to do the job and the suitability of temperament, and Justice Jamal is a superstar. He is recognized by people right, left and centre as a superstar as a legal thinker, but also as having personal qualities of extreme collegiality. I understand that on the Ontario Court of Appeal, where the judges sit in panels, other judges are delighted to be appointed to be sitting with him on a panel.

These things are really important for the functioning of the court—this ability to work with others and to find consensus. It's a [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We can't hear you anymore, Ms. Campbell. We can't hear your testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

[Kim Campbell]

I think it's important. How they vote is irrelevant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you. I'm sorry, Monsieur Fortin.

Mr. Fortin, you're out of time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I know, but I would like to raise a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

From the beginning, the sound often cuts off when witnesses respond. Their answers are really interesting and important, and I'm glad to be here today to talk to them.

Is there any way to ensure that witnesses have the necessary equipment before the meeting starts and to do sound tests?

I lost some of Ms. Campbell's answers, and the same thing happened with Mr. Lametti. We all agree here that it is important to hear those answers.

I would like this validated right away. Perhaps someone from IT could check with them. We need to make sure we have decent communications, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Fortin. I'll confer with the clerk and make sure we are staying on top of the equipment for our witnesses. I see that both of our witnesses have proper equipment.

We will move on to Mr. MacGregor.

Please go ahead, sir. You have six minutes.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I'd like to welcome Minister Lametti and Ms. Campbell to the committee.

We really appreciate having you both here to discuss this nomination process.

Minister Lametti, maybe I'll start with you. I'll just offer congratulations on Bill C-15 having received royal assent yesterday. I had the honour of serving with Romeo Saganash in the previous Parliament, so this has deep, personal meaning to me, as well as to many indigenous people across this country.

The preamble of Bill C-15 talks about how the declaration emphasizes the urgent need to respect the legal systems that indigenous peoples have. Clause 5 of that bill requires that the government take all measures necessary to ensure that the laws of Canada are consistent with the declaration.

Within the qualifications and assessment criteria, number one, under “Demonstrated superior knowledge of the law”, says that “knowledge of indigenous legal traditions may also be considered”.

Ms. Campbell, you might want to chime in on this. With respect to qualifications and assessment criteria, under number one, “knowledge of indigenous legal traditions”, can you expand on that a little? I want to know how much that figured into your consideration of applicants given the context we're now operating under in Canada, in which indigenous rights and title are becoming much more prevalent in Canadian society and will certainly be a big part of legal decisions going forward, especially with the passage of Bill C-15.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Just before I turn it over to Ms. Campbell, I'd like to thank you for the compliments on Bill C-15. Thank you. I certainly have saluted the leadership of Romeo Saganash throughout this whole process. He deserves a great deal of credit for the passage of Bill C-15. He did a lot of advocacy for it in the meantime, as well as for his own private member's bill.

We, as a government, recognize—and I, as the Minister of Justice, recognize—that we need to work hard at improving the justice system in all of its forms. That means, as per the UN declaration, helping the reflourishing, if you will, of indigenous normative systems. I have just recently announced, in response to call to action number 50, $10 million for funding across Canada for 21 projects aimed at reviving specific indigenous justice systems.

That's part of it. Part of it is encouraging better access to justice. Part of it is encouraging a better and more participatory justice system. Part of it is having more indigenous justices—and I've done that too, by appointing indigenous justices to the Superior Court and elevating currently sitting Superior Court justices in the Courts of Appeal. It's a priority for us, as well, to make sure that representation, at the earliest possible point, also extends to the Supreme Court of Canada.

With that, I'll turn it over to Ms. Campbell.

[Kim Campbell]

I would just say that the committee was very keen, if possible, to find an indigenous candidate. There's still the challenge of language; there is bilingual functional ability among indigenous people, sometimes with lawyers who are still junior.

I said the last time that I believe that within the next four or five years we will see an indigenous candidate for the Supreme Court of Canada. I also think that there has been a very significant recognition of the importance of non-indigenous justices on the court being literate in these issues. For example, the Honourable Malcolm Rowe comes from Newfoundland and Labrador, where that is not an area of the law that is necessarily well developed. Through his own involvement in an organization called Action Canada, which had taken him across the country, he had gotten to know the indigenous leaders in Haida Gwaii, Nunavut and other places. He was very curious and very interested and very cognizant of the importance. Justice Sheilah Martin is hugely respected by indigenous communities and has taken that area of the law as something very important to her.

It's less an issue in Quebec, because the issues are not so well developed in the law there, but certainly in western Canada and Ontario and Atlantic Canada it is. I think what we're seeing is a growth of indigenous people as lawyers but also a growing recognition on the part of non-indigenous lawyers and jurists that this is an area that they must engage in. For example, when I was the minister of justice, I convened a national symposium on aboriginal justice with the Minister of Justice of the Yukon. The thinking has changed dramatically since then, such that we are looking at not just understanding aboriginal rights as they are in the constitution, but also this whole indigenization of our legal thinking.

These are exciting and challenging times, and we have people in the country who can make great contributions to this. I firmly believe that this will be seen in the Supreme Court of Canada, but the Supreme Court is not the only place where these skills and talents are very valuable in terms of the development of our legal system and culture.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you to both of you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Mr. MacGregor. You are right on time.

We will now go to our second round of questions, starting with five minutes for Mr. Moore.

Please, go ahead.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of you for being here today on what is a very important process.

Minister Lametti, maybe for the benefit of those watching.... How many provinces have a guaranteed number of seats on the Supreme Court?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Only one does in terms of the Constitution, which is Quebec. It has three in recognition of the unique nature of the civil law component, which is different from the other nine provinces' and three territories' legal systems.

That being said, there is a tradition that three judges come from Ontario, two judges come from western provinces and one judge comes from the eastern provinces. That has been softened from time to time historically, but for the most part, it has worked in that fashion.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I understand that. Why then did you mention that in your search there would be a search conducted only from potential candidates from Ontario?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

The idea was just respecting that tradition. Obviously, other candidates could have applied. There was nothing barring them, but it was listed as a criterion.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

That makes sense to me 100%.

My question is about why, when Justice Cromwell retired—who was an Atlantic Canadian member of the Supreme Court of Canada—your government put no such search restriction that the replacement for Justice Cromwell be an Atlantic Canadian. That concerns me, as an Atlantic Canadian, because since Confederation, Atlantic Canada has always had a member on the Supreme Court of Canada.

Why is it that when there was a vacancy in Ontario, you searched only for Ontario applicants? I think you have done a wonderful job of finding a very qualified one, but why is it that when there was a vacancy in Atlantic Canada, the search was nationwide rather than just limited to Atlantic Canada?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I wasn't the minister at that point. I can't actually speak to the process. That was one of our earlier processes. What I can say is that the result of that process was Justice Rowe, who was appointed from the province of Newfoundland.

Again, I can't speak to the way in which the criteria were formulated there, because I didn't take part in those discussions.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Minister.

I think it's important for us to recognize the diversity of our country and that Atlantic Canada plays an important role. Future vacancies in Atlantic Canada on this most important institution should be filled by Atlantic Canadians.

Madam Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

You have two minutes remaining.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Minister, we are a committee of parliamentarians. The justice committee, as the Right Honourable Kim Campbell mentioned, is an important committee, and none of us take for granted the privilege it is to be a member of this committee.

There was a recommendation a couple of years ago by the justice committee that the committee that looks at the new nominee for the Supreme Court of Canada be a true committee of Parliament, chaired by a member of Parliament. I think, for example, our chair of this justice committee, when we meet with Justice Jamal later today.... That should be a parliamentary committee that has the same rights that we do and the same ability to question. It should not be chaired by someone from outside of Parliament. That doesn't make sense to many people.

Do you have a comment on why that recommendation hasn't been implemented yet?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Moore. I'm aware of that recommendation.

Right now, it's a true parliamentary committee and therefore we're subject to the usual rules of parliamentary committees, including [Technical difficulty—Editor] rules. That's perfectly fine, and I answer questions in that vein. My understanding of the nature of the session this afternoon is that it's a “get to know the candidate better” session.

The Supreme Court appointment process is in the hands of the Prime Minister. Madam Campbell and her committee, and ultimately I, as Minister of Justice, in conducting consultations on the short list, are only making recommendations to the Prime Minister.

My understanding—and this was the preferred view of that session—is that the opportunity you will have this afternoon with the proposed candidate is to ask the candidate questions and to get to know him or her better. It was felt that this should not be a normal parliamentary committee.

I've been through two processes thus far as Minister of Justice. This is my second one. I certainly thought the process went extremely well the last time around, with Justice Kasirer, and from what I could see as a member of Parliament, it went quite well with Justice Rowe and Justice Martin.

These are unprecedented.... They work very well. It gives transparency to the committee. I think it works quite well to involve the general public in that, including a leading law dean, as we're having this afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Minister Lametti. Thank you, Mr. Moore.

We'll now go to Mr. Maloney for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.