Justice Committee on Nov. 10th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that, Mr. Moore.

I'm just going to turn to you, Mr. Clerk, given that we had passed a motion already on the timing. I come to you to seek clarification as to what the procedural impact of this motion would be.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard]

I would only suggest that maybe what Mr. Moore really meant was to add a few words at the start of his motion saying something like, “Notwithstanding the decision made by the committee on x, y, z date, that”, and then the rest of his motion. That would make it perfectly in order.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Clerk.

I see, Mr. Virani, you have your hand raised. I encourage members to use the blue raise hand function on the participants list.

Go ahead, Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

I appreciate the comments by Mr. Moore. I also appreciate your work as chair to facilitate and use your discretion to ensure that we're hearing the testimony and to provide accommodation to today's witnesses, and to undertake all of the important initiatives. However, I also think it's important for the committee to respect the decision of the steering committee that was already made with respect to the procedure this committee would follow. There was Conservative representation at that steering committee meeting. Decisions were made. I can't go into details about those because I believe they are—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Madam Chair, there is no interpretation, and we are struggling to hear Mr. Virani.

Mr. Virani, you have to speak louder.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm sorry. I will speak louder.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Virani.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I apologize, Mr. Thériault.

It was just a microphone issue.

I will speak in English now.

While I appreciate the intervention by Mr. Moore, I also appreciate, Madam Chair, your ability to stickhandle today's meeting and provide accommodation to the witnesses where required and to use your discretion to ensure that we had enough time to get through this important testimony. I also believe it's important to stand by decisions the committee has already made, and I'm quite reticent to see decisions being revisited, meeting after meeting, that have already been made. There was already a decision made by the steering committee on procedure. That is why it is constituted, so we can have all the parties come to an agreement as to how we will roll out a study on a given bill.

We do have a court-imposed timeline on this bill. That's an important timeline. We've had agreement, including with Conservative input, on how this bill would be structured, how many days would be devoted to the study and how many days would be devoted to clause-by-clause. Those are important decisions that have already been made, and my view is that we should stick by those determinations. If we need to take a vote on Mr. Moore's impromptu motion today, then perhaps we should take a vote on it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that, Mr. Virani.

I have three more people on the speakers list. Obviously I'm cognizant of time. I would ask members to please keep your remarks as brief as possible so we can get through the day.

Madam Findlay, you're next.

[Kerry-Lynne Findlay, Conservative, South Surrey—White Rock, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Firstly, I would second that motion. Committees, the way they are structured, are masters of their own fates. We can revisit anything. There was some confusion about what happened at the subcommittee to begin with, as I recall, when we rolled it out at an earlier meeting. Although that decision was taken, there is nothing stopping us from revisiting any such decision.

I am finding it very difficult, with such an important bill, to have the witnesses rushed as much as they are. There's not much time for good questions. If we are talking to any witness who may be a person with disabilities, we need to give them a little more time, sometimes. This is not the way we should be dealing with such important legislation.

We would still be well within the time allowed by the court. I really urge the committee to consider this so that we are not seen by Canadians to be rushing such an important bill and that we give it the time it needs.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Madame Findlay.

Mr. Moore, I have you next on my list. Go ahead.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Yes, notwithstanding any discussions that took place at the steering committee, when we see how rushed we've been with our witnesses, when we see the interest that there is in this bill, and when we start to hear the testimony, it's perfectly reasonable for us as a committee to say, “You know what? We do need a couple more days.”

I'm not asking that we add 10 days or anything like that, but I think two more days of witness testimony and the ability for members of Parliament to ask questions that we're beginning to explore now. I'd ask the members of the committee to consider that, in spite of all the things that we're hearing, we only have one more day scheduled to hear witnesses.

Really, we get in one round of questions. The witnesses present for a few minutes each. The chair is doing her best to facilitate this within the time constraints that we have. I think, in light of that, we need a little more time. I would suggest that we take two more days. That is my motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you.

I see Mr. Cooper. We'll have exhausted the list at that time, and then we'll go to a vote.

Go ahead, Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Let me just say, as the Conservative who was at the subcommittee meeting, that at no time was it my position that four meetings followed by two meetings of clause-by-clause was adequate. I think, based upon the testimony that we heard today, it's become clearer that it is insufficient and that more time is required.

I know, having served on the Special Joint Committee on Physician-Assisted Dying and then on the justice committee with you, Madam Chair, during the study of Bill C-14, that there was a very thorough process. It not only resulted in more meetings, but longer panels.

This is a very condensed process. It's one of the most complex areas that Parliament could possibly legislate. I think Mr. Moore's motion to simply require an additional two meetings would provide an opportunity for this committee to do its due diligence without, in any significant way, running up against the clock that the government is concerned about.

Again, with respect to that clock, the government wouldn't be in this situation had it chosen not to prorogue Parliament. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you, Mr. Cooper.

Just—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Could I just raise a point of order, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, go ahead.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'm asking for clarification from you and from the clerk.

I, like Mr. Cooper, I believe, joined Parliament in 2015. I'm aware of the fact that when you have an in camera meeting the results of the meeting are made public but not the deliberations, including the positions that were taken. Mr. Cooper seems to have waived that confidentiality and just indicated his position at that meeting. I just don't know whether that's appropriate. I certainly have never done it. I'm seeking clarification from you and from the clerk as to the propriety of that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

We'll go to you, Mr. Clerk, to clarify the rules of in camera meetings, and whether what Mr. Cooper has spoken about violates those rules.

[The Clerk]

Madam Chair, I wanted to mention to the committee that decisions leading to the passing of motions introduced at in camera meetings—be it in subcommittee or the committee of the whole—are public, but the deliberation that lead to the committee carrying or defeating a motion are still confidential and must remain so.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Clerk.

Thank you for that point of order, Mr. Virani.

At this time I would just like to suspend for 30 seconds while I consult with the clerk on a couple of things.

Thank you very much.

In the interest of time, I would ask you, Mr. Clerk, to call the vote and we will come back with a more detailed ruling as to the words and then the point of order raised by Mr. Virani.

Mr. Clerk, could I please ask you to record a vote on Mr. Moore's motion?

Prior to doing that, would you just read out the text of Mr. Moore's motion as well?

[The Clerk]

I assume that Mr. Moore must read his motion again. Did I understand correctly? I apologize, I was on the French channel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes, could you just read exactly what committee members are voting on and then we'll record the vote?

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

That, notwithstanding any prior decisions of this committee, this committee undertake two additional days of study on Bill C-7.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, gentlemen and ladies.

The meeting is now adjourned.