Justice Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Deborah Lyons]

Okay. We'll let it go and come back to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Mendicino, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing and for the roles that you are playing in combatting anti-Semitism. We need your leadership now more than ever because anti-Semitism has never been more pervasive in Canada.

Indeed, as we recently saw, B'nai Brith published its annual audit, reporting 5,791 anti-Semitic incidents committed in 2023, more than double the year prior, and those trends have only accelerated since October 7. The fact is that Jewish hatred is running rampant in Canada—in government, in business, in labour, in universities, in schools, in places of worship, in our neighbourhoods, everywhere.

Last time, the committee heard from a number of very brave Jewish students, and their stories were distressing. In universities around the country, young Jews are being marginalized, threatened and assaulted on campus, almost always without any recourse or enforcement of their own schools' codes of conduct. Just last week, my colleague Anthony Housefather and I went to UBC, and we saw for ourselves the illegal encampment there. We saw banners calling explicitly for the eradication of Israel and violence against Jews. We toured Emily Carr and saw a Jewish student's artwork vandalized with Jewish hatred. We spoke with Jewish professors and union members who've experienced anti-Semitism and who've seen no action, leading some—like Dr. Ted Rosenberg, who this committee will hear from shortly—to resign from their faculties.

The truth is that universities in Canada are not safe for Jewish students. We are, indeed, in a crisis. Many universities have diversity, equity and inclusion policies that make no reference whatsoever to anti-Semitism, which is shocking.

My question is for the government's special envoy, Ms. Lyons.

In my view, it's impossible to promote safe and inclusive campuses for everyone if DEI policies are completely silent on one of the most deeply entrenched forms of hatred and discrimination towards an identifiable group. Ms. Lyons, you spoke about your experiences with universities. Should universities update their DEI policies to make specific reference to anti-Semitism? Should they be engaging Jewish faculty, Jewish employees and Jewish students in doing so?

[Deborah Lyons]

Again, I just want to reiterate how important it is for this committee to be examining this issue and making recommendations. Our office is very much looking forward to not just the recommendations but also any research that you may have done in preparation for this committee that would help us to move forward in our work.

Absolutely, there is no question that EDI is failing Jews in this country. EDI is failing anti-Semitism. It focuses on a very narrow description of marginalized, racialized or equity-seeking groups, and it does not address anti-Semitism at all. That has to change. We have seen this over and over again, which is why we're working with EDI heads, and it's why, when we talk about working with university administrations, we focus particularly on EDI units. However, again, I would say that it's not just at universities. We also have to look at this in business environments and in our own government environments.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I look forward to seeing that recommendation materialize in this committee's final report.

Second, I want to branch out on the need for greater training of law enforcement within this country when it comes to the prosecution of anti-Semitic hate speech, because the trends are deeply alarming. We've heard and seen demonstrators say things like, “All the Zionists are racists,” “All the Zionists are terrorists,” and, “Long live October 7,” which was the single worst day of casualties to the Jewish people since the Holocaust during the Second World War.

The case of Adil Charkaoui is perhaps one of the most egregious offences that I have seen, certainly since October 7. In the aftermath of October 7, he took to the streets in Montreal, denounced Zionists and called for the enemies of Gaza to be killed. He said, “spare none of them.” As a former prosecutor, I found the decision not to pursue criminal charges incomprehensible and deeply problematic. Zionists are an identifiable group on racial, religious, national and/or ethnic grounds for the purposes of sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code.

My question is for anyone who wants to take it. I see Monsieur Marceau in the room. I know Ms. Kirzner-Roberts is also on the line.

Do we need greater training for law enforcement, including police and prosecutors, to help them understand what anti-Semitic hate speech is and to ensure that, in the application of our existing laws, we are keeping our communities safe?

Monsieur Marceau.

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you, sir.

In a word, yes, we need better training. I mentioned this. Judges need to be better trained. Law enforcement needs to be better trained. The entire system needs to be better trained. There is a lack of understanding of what anti-Semitism is and how pervasive it is.

I am with you. I am flabbergasted by the decision not to prosecute the imam you talked about. I was blown away that he was not prosecuted. I was blown away that the organizer of that demonstration gave him the microphone, knowing who this person is.

What we heard on Parliament Hill, the heart of Canadian democracy, on April 18 is unacceptable. I understand that the OPS, the Ottawa Police Service, is still investigating. It shouldn't be that hard. We heard what they said.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you for that. That's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes, your time is up. Thank you very much.

I will now go to Monsieur Fortin.

Go ahead, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Marceau, Ms. Lyons, Mr. Robertson and Ms. Kirzner‑Roberts, thank you for being here with us today. I think this is an important study, as Ms. Lyons noted at the outset. It is among the most important topics that our committee will be studying this year, and we have to approach it seriously.

I listened carefully to my colleagues and to the witnesses, and I too am very concerned by what Mr. Adil Charkaoui said last fall. I also have trouble explaining the decision by Quebec's director of criminal and penal prosecutions not to go after Mr. Charkaoui. I am not questioning his decision and I'm sure he had good reasons for making it, as he does with all of his decisions. I do have questions though about our role as federal legislators. Isn't there something wrong here? Isn't there something we could do?

That is why my party introduced a bill recently that seeks to abolish the religious exceptions in the Criminal Code.

Under section 319 currently, it is prohibited to wilfully promote hatred, to publicly incite hatred or wilfully promote antisemitism. I will not read out the entire section, but it also stipulates defences, including if a person accused of such offences has in good faith expressed an opinion on a religious topic or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text, or attempted to establish an argument.

In our opinion, the Criminal Code should not include that kind of exception. We believe that the Criminal Code should apply to all citizens equally and that the rules for living in harmony right across Canada should be the same for everyone, regardless of religion or beliefs, and if a religion should happen to allow or advocate hatred or violence, that religion has no place in Quebec or Canada, in our humble opinion.

Ms. Lyons, do you think this kind of religious exception should be eliminated, which allows people to do something that would otherwise be considered a crime, simply by virtue of belief in a religious text?

[Deborah Lyons]

I would have to say that I was very impressed with the recommendation that came forward from your party on this.

We have seen with this recent case in Quebec the implications of using a religious defence. Certainly I think it's something we have to continue to examine. I'm discussing it right now with the Department of Justice and with others.

At this stage of the game, I'm not going to offer a final conclusion, but I am very interested in exploring this as an option. We are seeing it used in this country and in other places as a defence that, frankly, does not stand the ground in these very difficult times.

Thank you.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Lyons.

Mr. Marceau, I would also like to hear your thoughts on this.

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

Religion is not an acceptable defence for inciting hatred and should never be, period. If I were an MP, as I was 25 years ago, I would vote for this bill.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Marceau.

What are your thoughts, Mr. Roberston?

[Richard Robertson]

It's the submission of B'nai Brith that what's at issue here is the scope in which the current law is being applied. The fact that this individual was given an exception to a speech that was being made outside of the church and that was not based in scripture is the problem. It's the current law. We have it on the books, as Mr. Marceau alluded to during his testimony, and it needs to be applied as rigorously as possible to ensure the safety of all Canadians, including Jewish Canadians.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Robertson.

Ms. Kirzner‑Roberts, I will now turn to you at last, but not because your testimony is less important. I would like to hear your opinion on this.

[Jaime Kirzner-Roberts]

Thank you so much to the member for that question.

Look, I agree with you. Every Canadian has to be subject to the same laws and standards, and nobody's religion should excuse them for engaging in any kind of hate speech.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Since I have just a few seconds left, I want to thank you again for being here today. I hope we can make progress on this important battle against anti-Semitism and all forms of hatred, regardless of their basis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Mr. MacGregor for the last six minutes of the first round.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to echo my colleagues in thanking all of the witnesses for being here to help inform this committee's study.

I found, in the opening statements from all of you, a common thread regarding the need for education and training, particularly with respect to Canada's post-secondary institutions. I want to see if we can turn the committee's attention to students before they get to post-secondary systems.

I had a pretty unique childhood in the 1980s in that I got to live in both Germany and Israel. I lived in Germany from 1982 to 1985. Some of my neighbours were former soldiers in the Wehrmacht, and I came to understand, from a very young age, the country's collective guilt for its role in the Holocaust. Later on, I spent a year living in Israel and, of course, came to know a few Holocaust survivors. I visited the memorial at Yad Vashem. Those two experiences had a profound impact on my life from a very young age and helped me understand the Holocaust and the collective experiences of Jewish people around the world.

Ms. Lyons, I know education is under provincial jurisdiction. However, do you think there is anything this committee could recommend to the federal government about partnering with provincial governments to equip students with the necessary knowledge before they reach post-secondary education institutions, so they may be less susceptible to the hatred that has been so clearly outlined here?

[Deborah Lyons]

Thank you so much for that very important question. Let me mention a few things in the opening.

We now have the majority of provinces, through their ministers of education, committing to mandatory Holocaust education in K-to-12 schools, which is to be implemented in the fall of 2025. We have an enormous opportunity here with the attention in our environment—unfortunately—right now around the issue of anti-Semitism. We have attention on the issue. We have a commitment from provincial ministers of education. In the recent budget, the federal government committed an additional $5 million for the next five years, with $2 million ongoing for Holocaust education. We have excellent commitment and tools in front of us now to get the job done of really allowing our children in K to 12 the opportunity to learn about the Holocaust.

Additionally, for this committee, we also need to ensure this is being tied to a better understanding of modern-day anti-Semitism and how these are connected, and do so in a way that also educates—I must admit—teachers and school boards about modern-day anti-Semitism.

I think, from this committee's perspective, if we could look at making sure that, as this education curriculum rolls out, it also applies to connecting to what hate environments do and the experience we're facing right now of modern-day anti-Semitism.

Thank you.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Marceau, I'd like to turn to you for my next question.

One of my regular committees is the public safety committee. In 2022, I enjoyed a good working relationship with Mr. Mendicino when he was minister. One of our first reports was on the rise of ideologically motivated violent extremism. I took note in your opening comments about how police and security services were not really acting on the laws already on the books, and about the fear many Jewish students are facing every time they go to a post-secondary institution.

One of our recommendations in that report was with regard to the security infrastructure program. We asked that it be more effective, accessible and responsive to community needs, including through expanded eligibility criteria and a simplified application process.

I know the 2024 budget increases the funding for that program, but is there anything you would like to see this committee recommend with respect to that program and how it may be tailored to address some of the things you've outlined so clearly?

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you, Mr. MacGregor.

Think about it. For many Jews, going to synagogue is like going through the airport. There's security at the door. Imagine your church or your temple having to go through that level of security. It is very expensive for members of the Jewish community, when they belong to a synagogue, to have to pay for this. Therefore, we're grateful that this program was put in place by the Conservative government. We are grateful that it has been bona fide under this current government. We are grateful that it seems to have support from every political party, but it can be better.

One of the things that I would suggest this committee look at is the Community Security Trust. That's the British model that creates a synergy between the Jewish community and law enforcement to make sure the security is dynamic and it's not simply helping institutions.

I'll close with this: We need training for prosecutors and not just police officers, because prosecutors—and Mr. Mendicino knows about this—have an important role and a crucial role to play in our justice system.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Our time is tight. What I could do is shorten the second round a little bit and go with Mr. Morantz for three minutes, followed by three minutes, one and a half minutes and one and a half minutes.

Mr. Morantz, the floor is yours.

[Marty Morantz, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Marceau you said earlier that political leaders must lead. I would argue that the Prime Minister is leading but in the wrong way.

Since October 7, they have voted for a one-sided, anti-Israel motion at the United Nations, and a motion that was passed in the House of Commons punished Israel and rewarded Hamas. It punished Israel by blocking arms sales and rewarded Hamas by reinstating funding for UNRWA, which I know you are currently suing the federal government over. As well, they failed to unequivocally condemn the frivolous genocide convention claim launched in South Africa

If leadership comes from the top, this is exactly the wrong kind of leadership we need in the face of a B'nai Brith report that shows that anti-Semitism since October 7 has spiked by 208%. Wouldn't you agree?

[Richard Marceau]

Thank you, Mr. Morantz, for your question.

Our disagreement with the government on some of its decisions regarding the current Hamas-Israel conflict is well known, and we're public about that. Our disappointment with and our condemnation of the vote at the UN was public, and when we had to disagree with the government, we disagreed. We were talking—I don't remember if you were there, I apologize—at the Holocaust Memorial Day service in January. I was asked to speak. It was a big honour for me. One of the things I mentioned—and I tie it to Mr. MacGregor's question regarding the Holocaust—was that Holocaust education is important. It is central.

However, I'm reminded of that amazing book, which I invite you to read if you haven't. I'm sure you have. It's called People Love Dead Jews. Holocaust education is important. Remembering what happened and knowing more about the education regarding what happened is important. Let me close with this—