Evidence of meeting #105 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jews.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:10 a.m.
Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
A very quick answer is to pay attention to the ways in which the problems we're seeing on campuses around anti-Semitism are coordinated, and they're coordinated through social media. The messages and the chants that we are finding so egregious and frightening as Jews in our community are coming across social media and circulating.
I know we're running out of time, but that's the issue really—it becomes a place to amplify hate.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you very much.
I am going to do a second round, and we're going to go to three minutes, three minutes, one and a half minutes, and one and a half minutes. I will be strict on time as much as I can.
We will begin with Ms. Lantsman, please.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thanks.
First of all, thank you, everybody, for your testimony. If you have any documents, please share them with the committee.
Dr. Rosenberg, you said something about DEI. There have been some victories against DEI, let's say, at MIT, where statements are no longer required in hiring practices.
Do you believe this is salvageable at university or not? I have a follow-up question, given that you also practise as well as teach.
10:10 a.m.
Doctor, As an Individual
First of all, I'd say that, historically and presently, there has been and is discrimination against very vulnerable groups: indigenous people, people of colour, homophobia, etc. That is real.
The question is this: Is DEI the answer? In what I've seen with my experience with DEI, it's been more divisive than it has united people. I think all people in Canada agree that we want to eradicate discrimination and hatred against groups. Personally, I feel that DEI has oversimplified everything and increased divisions.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
Look, I couldn't agree more. Frankly, I think it's an embarrassment for the universities and their presidents, governing councils and everybody associated with the governance of those institutions to allow what is happening right now on those campuses. I would be embarrassed as a student or as an alumna of the institution I went to.
I have a question specifically about meritocracy.
Given that you practise medicine as well as teach it, do you think that, with the perversion of DEI in all of our institutions, you're getting the right medical students into schools and that patients are being served accordingly, given the DEI structures imposed on universities over the last 20 years?
10:10 a.m.
Doctor, As an Individual
Okay. I want to add one more thing about DEI. You know, one of the problems with the DEI and the identity politics is intersectionality, which causes the piling on. It causes the social media epidemics and amplification. That's what we're seeing.
In terms of whether we're able to select appropriate candidates right now, the University of British Columbia says there are certain groups of people who are preferentially going to be accepted: people of colour, indigenous people, LGBTQ, etc. They preferentially get into medical schools. They also take people based on their social justice experience. Can you imagine if I said my social justice experience was volunteering on a kibbutz or with Magen David Adom, or spending grade 10 in an agricultural school? There is no way I would get into UBC today.
10:10 a.m.
Conservative
Melissa Lantsman Conservative Thornhill, ON
I have a quick follow-up....
Are we getting the best doctors and, as a result, the best patient care? Just give a yes or no.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
If you want to say yes or no, go ahead. Otherwise, I would love it if you would submit that in writing.
10:10 a.m.
Doctor, As an Individual
I will say one line.
I would refer you to Dr. Philip Berger's article in the Toronto Star, which says we're making a huge mistake. We're selecting people based on identity rather than qualification.
10:10 a.m.
Liberal
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you.
I'm going to pick up on intersectionality, because Dr. Rosenberg just referred to it. I'm curious about raising this issue with Dr. Butler, if I may.
There is a bit of a perception that Jewish people are all one homogenous group—one and the same. However, there are some groups on campus that may be experiencing anti-Semitism in different ways, particularly queer youth, for example.
Can you talk a bit about what that experience might be and what we need to do to better protect students with intersectional identities?
10:15 a.m.
Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
I'm a Jewish woman. I'm a feminist professor. I have an intersectional identity, too. It's something that's very important to my work. It's a tool like any other. It isn't a demonic tool. It can be a very powerful one. Think about LGBTQ+ students on campus. What's happening, if they're Jewish, is that they have their Jewish identity, but they also have their queer identity. Those things should work beautifully together, and there should be places where they can strengthen each together.
What's happened is that they're excluded from progressive spaces. You're forced into a loyalty test of declaring you're not a Zionist and that you repudiate the State of Israel. We know these are the students who are facing real challenges in terms of their social integration and mental health. They are some very vulnerable students. They need all the support they can get. Their exclusion from those spaces is particularly painful and egregious.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
I don't have much time. I also want to quickly speak to either Dr. Kogan or Dr. Butler.
As part of the Network of Engaged Canadian Academics, you put out a REACT model for universities. I understand this means “Reach out to Jewish students, faculty, and staff”, “Engage: With the diversity of Jewish life”, “Act: Systematically to address antisemitism”, “Call out: Antisemitism” and “Teach: about the history [and] legacy”.
First of all, please submit any materials you have on that. Also, in the final minute, could you speak about why you think this is important?
10:15 a.m.
Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
We will be happy to submit it. I think we may have already, actually.
This was actually developed by Professor Lilach Marom, who is a member of NECA, as part of her presentation on EDI that she did earlier this year to educate NECA members.
The point of that is to think about how EDI can be strengthened to better include Jews and anti-Semitism. It is a framework that's designed to support people who are vulnerable and who are equity-seeking groups. How do we deal with those groups? How do we include Jews when they're not included?
If you look at EDI policies across Canada at universities, “Jew”, “anti-Semitism” and “Judaism” are not even in the paperwork.
10:15 a.m.
Liberal
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Since I have just a minute and a half, I would like each of you to answer my question in 10 seconds.
We are the federal legislative body. We enact federal legislation. Clearly, we are not on the front lines. So what do you expect from us, in two or three sentences?
Dr. Kogan, you may answer first.
10:15 a.m.
Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
We need to strengthen academic freedom by ensuring that there is actually a diverse set of voices on our campuses. That's one thing that needs to happen.
We need to strengthen EDI. We just heard about how we can include that.
We need training. We need training on anti-Semitism. We need to make sure that our deans, our provosts and our chairs actually understand what it is.
10:15 a.m.
Associate Professor, Network of Engaged Canadian Academics
I would add to all of that also to take seriously the policies and procedures that already exist. There are laws that exist in our country and in our provinces that can address these issues but which have not been applied.
10:15 a.m.
Doctor, As an Individual
I think that all our leaders need to speak out against demonizing speech all the time. I think they need to model behaviour that is compassionate and empathetic, and recognize that there are always two parties when there's a conflict.
10:15 a.m.
Joseph & Wolf Lebovic Chair of Jewish Studies, University of Waterloo, As an Individual
I would echo the previous comments and I would just say that, if the federal government has any input into divestment policies of universities, they should really ensure that they're not discriminatory.