Justice Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[Dr. Cary Kogan]

I can respond.

I would say that they haven't shown up for class. They haven't turned in the assignments, so we can't even grade them. That's where we're at.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Dr. Diamond.

[Dr. James A. Diamond]

I can speak in terms of my own institution. I think they've been trying to handle this. I wouldn't give them an F. However, as I said in my last response, to actually dialogue and consider divestment...that is quite shocking to me. On that particular issue, I would give them an F.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

Dr. Diamond, I don't think everybody had exactly what you experienced at the University of Toronto, and I want to read from an email that you sent to University of Toronto about what you experienced. You said:

A large group of what can only be described as masked thugs blocked my movement and maniacally and menacingly screamed obscenities at me such as “go back to your country”; “you will never get by me”; followed by a string of vulgar expletives unworthy of repeating.

Now, Dr. Diamond, how did that make you feel? I've heard from many students and faculty members across the country that they're experiencing the same when walking around these encampments.

[Dr. James A. Diamond]

Obviously that was.... I'm an academic, a senior academic for many years. I've never been confronted this way. As a young man, I had various anti-Semitic incidents but never in my career as an academic. It was humiliating. However, it was also the only thing, as I said before, that could explain that kind of reaction, especially the the shouts of “go back to your country”. I was born and raised in Canada. My parents and my in-laws are survivors of the Holocaust. They came, and they worked all their lives, you know, and loved Canada for what it offered them.

When they said that to me, all that kind of came to my mind, and my thoughts were these: Is this all disintegrating? Are we reverting back to a situation that my parents perhaps faced many years ago?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

You know if they would have faced that.... It's hurtful, it's anti-Semitic, and it's happening across this country.

Dr. Rosenberg, the biggest-ever personal donation to the University of Manitoba—$30 million—was given by philanthropist Ernest Rady to name the medical school after his father, Max Rady. He recently complained to the school about the speech of the valedictorian at the medical school graduation. He basically said that the “speech not only dishonoured the memory of [his] father, but also disrespected and disparaged Jewish people as a whole”. This is where the valedictorian chose to take the medical school graduation—in front of many graduates and faculty who are Jewish—and turn it into a diatribe against Israel.

How does that...? When that happens, Dr. Rosenberg—because you described very well how it made you feel as a faculty member—what happens to a Jewish faculty member or a Jewish student who is in that graduating class?

[Dr. Ted Rosenberg]

It's terrible. I can tell you that when the petition went around from the UBC medical students, we felt it like this massive gut punch. Worse than that, like the ovation that was heard at the University of Manitoba, was the silence from our colleagues. Not only was there silence, but there were social media attacks on students who said they wouldn't sign the petition. It was terrible for us.

I can tell you, as an academic who has spent 30 years teaching and who loves teaching, I was truly afraid of an accusation of implicit harassment by these students, just by virtue of the fact that they may have found out that I'm Jewish and that I support the State of Israel. There's no way to defend ourselves against that harassment and that accusation.

I'll make one last comment. I was in touch with physicians from Ontario yesterday. Over 110 physicians from Ontario, who are academic physicians, are almost certainly going to withdraw their affiliation with the University of Toronto because they are so ashamed. What we're looking at is a medical system across Canada that will soon be Judenrein if this continues.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It's even more poignant in the sense that the school is named for a Jewish donor. The Jewish community contributes so much to the medical community in Canada, yet we feel shut out by this yelling and screaming, and these epithets and comments that simply attack us for our identity as Zionists.

Ms. Butler and Mr. Kogan, do you want to comment on that?

[Dr. Cary Kogan]

I think we just need to point something out that's really important, which is based on actual data about what we know about Jewish Canadians. This is from Robert Brym's study that just came out last month, which tells us that 91% of Canadian Jews would say that they support the State of Israel and the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state. We know that when people are attacking people for their core identity, which is their connection with Israel, they are attacking the Jewish community.

[Dr. Deidre Butler]

To the point about convocations, we're about to head into convocation ceremonies across Canada and there's grave concern.

At my own university in the fall, there was a very quick burst of pro-Palestinian celebration, which was felt very differently, of course, by the Jewish community there, when it was only a few weeks after October 7. Many people came—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dr. Kogan, Dr. Butler, Dr. Rosenberg and Dr. Diamond, thank you for being with us today. This is an important study, and your input is equally important.

Dr. Diamond, I would like to pick up on something you said earlier. I really like what you said about freedom of expression not necessarily requiring others to listen. I completely agree with you and I wanted to point that out right away.

Of course, I think we all agree that anti-Semitism is unacceptable. In any case, I don't know anyone who disagrees. We are here to look for ways to improve things. Otherwise, we would simply be talking for the sake of it, which is not very productive. So we are looking for ways to better protect freedom of religion and freedom of expression across Quebec and Canada. This is of concern to me and leads me to a question. If I understand what you are asking for or what the Jewish community is asking for, it is freedom of religion, respect for religious beliefs, in the same way that other religions are respected. I would like to clarify that with you, Dr. Diamond.

Is that indeed what you are asking for, that everyone should be treated the same way, or are you asking for something specific for the Jewish community?

[Dr. James A. Diamond]

I can't speak on behalf of the entire Jewish community in Canada, and what you said perfectly are just kinds of ways of looking at anti-Semitism.

I'll focus my concern on my own area in the academic community and what I see this leading to. In terms of freedom of expression and freedom of religion people, make a mistake by looking at Jews as people who just practice a religion. Jews are far more than that. They're are a nation. They're a people. They're a culture.

From an academic viewpoint, I'll just mention one thing. As a result of everything that's going on, there has been an astonishing range of discriminatory practices against Jewish academics. These include termination of scientific collaborations, cancellation of conference invitations, refusal to consider scholarly submissions to journals, rejections of promotion evaluations and withdrawals of offers for academic appointments, among many other instances.

From my kind of narrow perspective, this is really a pernicious phenomenon. It is a form of anti-Semitism that suppresses academic freedom within the academy, which will have unbelievable ramifications far beyond Jews.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Dr. Diamond.

In an ideal world, or in an ideal Quebec or Canada, and I support this, people would be able to talk about everything freely, about all religions, philosophies and ways of thinking, and no one would have to listen or agree with what was said.

In my view, when a university has theoretical discussions that people disagree on, that is not only normal but it is actually healthy. That is what we want. We want everyone to be free to practise their religion and have their beliefs.

Do you agree with that statement, Dr. Diamond?

[Dr. James A. Diamond]

Absolutely. You described exactly how I conduct my classes. I have only a couple of rules in my classes. You don't make your point by raising your voice. You don't make your point by sloganeering. You make your point in civil discourse and offer cogent reasoning. Those are my rules in a class. If you could do that, if you could abide by that, then we listen.

I don't listen to demands. If a student says, “I demand that you subscribe to this opinion”, then I probably will tell them, “Maybe you could leave the classroom, and we'll continue our discussion.”

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Dr. Diamond.

I have barely a minute left and I would like Dr. Kogan to answer my question briefly.

[Dr. Cary Kogan]

I completely agree with Dr. Diamond. What we are seeing on campuses is the reduction of university freedom. This is in fact happening at all Canadian universities.

It really worries me that there is only one way of looking at things in the classroom. That does not allow other people their freedom of expression.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Dr. Kogan.

Dr. Rosenberg, I have about thirty seconds left. Can you answer briefly?

Madam Chair, it seems that the interpreters are behind, so I will ask Dr. Butler to answer my question.

My apologies, Dr. Rosenberg.

[Dr. Deidre Butler]

I would amplify what Professor Kogan is saying.

In the university, we need to be arguing using evidence-based decision-making and using arguments that are based on reason. We don't all have to agree with each other, but we have to be able to be civil with each other. You don't have to subscribe to a belief to understand an argument. Without viewpoint diversity, we're only hearing one argument, and that's our problem right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fortin.

Ms. Butler, thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. MacGregor, please.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for joining us today and helping inform this committee on its study into this very difficult subject.

In a perfect world, universities are a place where we should be able to have difficult conversations on a wide range of subjects. I think all of our witnesses have clearly differentiated between that and the vile hatred that exists for so many Jewish students on campuses across Canada. Thank you for that. I think your comments, coming from the academic perspective, mirror and echo what this committee has heard from students, so thank you for adding that important perspective.

I'd like to turn my first question to the Network of Engaged Canadian Academics.

We're dealing with a number of jurisdictions here, federal and provincial, and one question I have for you involves that. This is the justice committee, and we're ultimately making recommendations to the federal government.

Is there anything additional that you would like to see in how the federal government works with post-secondary education ministers of provincial governments? Is there anything missing in that relationship or anything the federal government could do to aid those ministers in the responsibilities that they have for post-secondary institutions within their respective provinces?

[Dr. Deidre Butler]

We have a few suggestions, of course.

The first thing I would say is that we lack really good data in terms of what's happening on our campuses. Partially, that has to do with the reporting systems that exist on our campuses across Canada, where reports aren't being taken. They aren't being heard. If they're heard, they're not seeing anti-Semitism, and they're certainly not being counted as anti-Semitism. If you speak to university presidents and administrations, and they say there's no problem. We are telling you there is a very serious problem.

We need good data, and it has to be unbiased data that everyone can accept as authentic and legitimate.

I would then go on to talk about EDI, but do you want to...?

[Dr. Cary Kogan]

Sure, I can speak about that.

I think we have an issue right now, and in fact, we have submitted a grant request to SSHRC, actually, to look at this issue of the way that the equity, diversity and inclusion frameworks that are on our campuses are not speaking to Jewish people, are not speaking to anti-Semitism, and in fact in some cases are using an ideological framework that divides the world into black or white, victimized or victimizer, and oppressed or oppressor.

What happens is that Jews get shoehorned into this framework inappropriately. It's an inappropriate application.

I would say that we need to strengthen these EDI frameworks and make sure that there's an inclusion of the Jewish experience, and also of anti-Semitism, in a way that actually will protect and recognize the Jewish experience.

[Dr. Ted Rosenberg]

Thank you. I would just like to make two comments.

First of all, anti-Semitism is not recognized at UBC's faculty of medicine. If you go on their search engine, it doesn't exist. How can you say there's a problem if it doesn't exist? If you feel discrimination, make a complaint that you're discriminated against, but don't say you're Jewish or that it's Jew hatred or anti-Semitic.

There was a survey that went around UBC this week for all the faculty of medicine asking what group they considered themselves in. They had every single group except Jews.

The second point I want to make is about DEI. It's not just that this is a very narrow definition of your Marvel universe of oppressors and oppressed, oppressors who could do no good and oppressed people who could do no wrong. It's also that as Jews, we have been cast as white, privileged and also, worst of all, the apex oppressor in support of settler colonialism, which right now is the worst possible epithet that you could say against anyone in Canada.

That's where Jews stand right now.

[Alistair MacGregor, NDP, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you for that.

I went to university. My undergrad was at the University of Victoria and I did my master's degree at Royal Roads, both on Vancouver Island. I guess the big difference then, especially in my undergrad days, was that we didn't have social media. It is an incredibly different environment now on campuses with social media—the fact that anyone could have their face livestreamed out in public and immediately their image is shared through social media accounts.

There has been a lot of discussion at various federal committees on taking social media companies to task, making them accountable for their standards, for the algorithms that push people into these dark corners. I know this intimately because I'm a member of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We have delved deeply into ideologically motivated violent extremism. We have had expert testimony on how social media companies make money off of algorithms pushing people.

Can you just talk a little bit about it from your perspectives as academics? Is there anything more you would like to see this committee recommend with respect to how we make sure social media companies are accountable for the terms and conditions on their platforms? We have to remember that these are not public spaces. They are private spaces, and they are in the ownership of a company that is trying to make money.