Justice Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm sorry to stop you there, Ms. Bisla, but time is running out. I apologize for being rude.

I understand that the Criminal Code contains definitions. I'll be more specific if that's okay with you.

The Criminal Code currently contains a provision, in section 319, which states that “[no] person shall be convicted of an offence” of antisemitism “if, in good faith, they expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text”.

In your opinion, should an exception of this nature—that is to say that hate can be promoted based on a religious text—be maintained or should it be reviewed?

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

There are defences available in the Criminal Code. I am familiar with those defences, and they are considered. It's always done on a case-by-case basis.

If you're asking me if those need to be revisited, I think they're appropriate. That might be a question better suited for a lawyer as opposed to me.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

My colleague Mr. Mendicino was just talking about situations such as that of Mr. Charkaoui, who made public statements this winter or last fall, statements whose exact content I don't remember, but which were tantamount to asking Allah to kill all Jews, without forgetting any of them. We were somewhat shocked by that and we wondered whether Mr. Charkaoui could have been prosecuted and found guilty without this defence under section 319 of the Criminal Code.

I understand that you don't have a particular opinion on whether this type of exception encourages hate speech.

Can you hear the interpretation, Ms. Bisla? I'm speaking to you.

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

I heard. Thank you very much.

There is a provision in the Criminal Code that prohibits advocating genocide.

In terms of my opinion regarding a specific situation, I would have to look at all of the facts of a case, because these are based on context. I'm not in a position to comment about a general statement.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I may ask Mr. Johnson to answer that question, in a few seconds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We'll come back to that, Chief. Thank you very much.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

A lot of time is lost because of the interpretation in my case. I understand that, but, to be fairer, we could add 30 seconds to my six minutes, given the time I lose waiting for answers that would come immediately if I asked my questions in English.

So I appeal to your sense of fairness, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes. I'm very fair.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Yes, I know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I will now give the floor to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to start by thanking all of the witnesses for being with us on this study. I do believe it's one of the most important things on which we've embarked.

In particular, I want to thank Mr. Sandler for being very forthright in placing the situation Canadian Jews face before this committee in a forceful manner.

One of the things you didn't get to was the discussion about the 10 reasons why anti-Semitism is so pervasive. It's important we understand where it's coming from if we're going to make recommendations on how to combat it. I'd like to give you as much of my time as you need to talk about that.

[Mark Sandler]

Thank you. I appreciate that very much.

I've identified the following factors, and I'm happy to elaborate on them as might be necessary.

We see the active involvement of extremists and extremist organizations in Canada, which are operating with impunity here.

We see foreign money infused into Canada. We've seen one expert describe Canada as a major hub for extremist financing and money laundering worldwide.

We see the misuse of social media by circulating misinformation, anti-Semitic tropes and historical distortions. This misuse is orchestrated in many instances by extremists and foreign governments.

We see radicalized faculty members who seek to indoctrinate students rather than engage in a discussion where controversial topics are discussed.

We see in many classrooms a culture that does not promote respectful dialogue on controversial issues, and that does not encourage critical thinking and active listening.

We see the confusion and often deliberate obfuscation of the distinction between protected speech and hate speech designed to immunize those who engage in hate speech or hate activities from accountability.

We see the underuse and inconsistent use by law enforcement and prosecution services of existing criminal law tools. From my perspective, the issue is less about defining a hate crime and more about training through case scenarios, so police officers actually understand what you do in a specific case situation. I've worked with the Toronto Police on case scenarios pre-October 7, and I think it's of critical importance, especially now.

We see the failure by many school administrations to enforce their own codes of conduct to protect students from harm.

We see the use of slogans that incite violence, promote hatred and mirror unequivocal jihadist language and activities.

Finally, we see mainstream media stories. I don't bash the media generally, but what I see here are mainstream media stories that often minimize or ignore pro-Israel perspectives, subject Hamas's assertions to a lower level of scrutiny than Israeli assertions, treat unsupported assertions of fact and repeatedly fail to correct or give appropriate attention to the disproof or undermining of inflammatory assertions about Israel.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Sandler.

Mr. Miller, how frequently do codes of conduct at the university specifically mention anti-Semitism, and how frequently is anti-Semitism a part of diversity initiatives?

[Gabriel Miller]

Through you, Madam Chair, thank you for the question.

These are two points that have been raised with us in all of our discussions with Jewish students and leaders.

On the first point, we helped collect answers to a question in a letter from MPs sent to 27 universities that asked this very question. All respondents—I believe Mr. Housefather might correct me—said that their existing policies would prohibit anti-Semitism. However, what we're hearing from students and faculty is that it's in the enforcement of those codes of conduct in an equal way where they see institutions falling down. There's work to do there. I think better training—picking up on some of Mr. Sandler's points—and better tools for identifying and addressing anti-Semitism will help very much.

On EDI, it's clear there's quite a bit of work to do here to make sure EDI frameworks, policies and administrators are protecting all students, specifically Jewish students and faculty. We have seen examples where changes have already been made, as well as a commitment from all of our universities to continue making changes to reflect the fact that there is now, I think, a growing realization that these policies need to do more to protect Jewish Canadians.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Without reinterpreting what you just said to me, what I hear is that you haven't said anything about whether policies explicitly mention anti-Semitism and specifically protect Jewish students as part of diversity. You haven't really answered that. You said that universities say their policies would prohibit anti-Semitic acts.

Do they specifically address it? I think that's a problem with enforcement. If something is not explicitly addressed, it creates a vacuum.

[Gabriel Miller]

Let me be clear. I think those policies....

We will be working with our members to make sure we are explicitly not just documenting what needs to be the case in policy but also communicating it so that Jewish students and faculty know these systems are there for them, and that they can access them to protect themselves and feel secure on their campus.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Mr. Sandler, would you like to add to that briefly?

[Mark Sandler]

Yes. There are codes of conduct that don't address this issue adequately or at all.

I want to make a point. If one doesn't adopt the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism, codes of conduct that prohibit anti-Semitism are worthless, because it's defined away. People will describe it as not anti-Semitic and, therefore, define it out of existence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

We will now go to our second round, with five minutes to Mr. Van Popta.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today on this very important study on anti-Semitism.

Detective Sergeant Bisla, my first question will be for you.

You said the Toronto Police Service takes anti-Semitism very seriously, and I know that you do. You said that, in your opinion, hate speech is a precursor to ideologically motivated violent extremism.

In your opinion, is what's happening on the University of Toronto campus today a precursor to what you would think of as ideologically motivated violent extremism?

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

When I'm talking about those types of examples, I'm talking more about some of the mischief investigations the Toronto Police Service has been involved in, such as flyers being posted and displayed in various areas within Toronto.

I'm not speaking specifically about the University of Toronto.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

I read in The Globe and Mail this morning that the University of Toronto is seeking an injunction to remove the encampment on the university grounds. Are you aware of that? Perhaps you could give us a bit of background.

[Det Sgt Kiran Bisla]

I am aware of it, but perhaps the deputy might be able to speak a bit further on this.

[D/Chief Robert Johnson]

Thank you, Kiran.

Yes, we are aware of it. We have been working with the University of Toronto for the last couple of weeks on this issue. We were notified this morning that they are seeking an injunction.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to move on to Mr. Miller from Universities Canada.

You mentioned in your opening testimony, and Mr. Sandler has also referred to it, the importance of a code of conduct and adopting the IHRA definition of what anti-Semitism is. Is that a universally accepted statement across all your universities?

I ask that question in the context of something I read in The New York Times, where the authorities at Columbia University are saying that it is not their job to define anti-Semitism, that it is their job to listen to students.

In that context, what are your comments?