Justice Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I have a quick question. You mentioned in your testimony that hate is transferred. The second aspect that you touched on was about your son...mentioning to learn about your neighbours. You mentioned to CBC that people should take the time to get to know their neighbours and people who are different from them. How can we encourage that at the community level, and what can we as public leaders do there?

[Ali Islam]

If I go back to some of the building blocks of Islamophobia, the most benign form of Islamophobia is a general lack of exposure to or ignorance of Muslims. Maybe you've never come across a Muslim in your life. There are large parts of Canada where that's certainly possible.

Telling more Muslim stories and having more Muslim voices would be one method of doing it. When you go back to the role of government and Parliament, I think Parliament has to figure out how to tell Canadians—the 95% of Canadians who are not Muslim—why it's important to combat Islamophobia and other forms of hatred. If it doesn't affect the majority, how is protection of the minority better for the whole country?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, Dr. Islam.

We now move to Monsieur Fortin.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, esteemed witnesses, for joining us this morning. Your testimony is important.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm learning things. I learned some at the meetings we held on anti‑Semitism, and this morning I'm learning some about Islam. I don't think we've finished learning.

I'll pick up on what Mr. Islam just said: Maybe we don't know enough about Islam, the Muslim religion, and maybe there's a need, indeed, to know more about the precepts of this religion.

That said, we all want to have a safe living environment, obviously. We want our streets to be safe, and we want everyone to be able to live the religion of their choice freely and without persecution.

Recently, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights has focused a lot on anti‑Semitism. Now, we're looking at the issue of Islamophobia.

Mr. Islam, should we treat all forms of discrimination equally? Think, for example, of Islamophobia, anti‑Semitism, racism, which you were just talking about, or discrimination based on skin colour or sexual orientation. All of this is detrimental to maintaining a healthy climate in Canada and Quebec. In your opinion, should we treat all these forms of discrimination in the same way, or are there particular challenges that we need to tackle differently, particularly in the case of Islamophobia?

Mr. Islam, my question is for you.

Madam Chair, can the witness hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Dr. Islam, I don't know if you heard the question that Mr. Fortin asked.

By the way, I've stopped the time.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I think his microphone is on mute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

His microphone is on.

Were you able to hear Mr. Fortin's question in French? He was addressing it to you.

[Ali Islam]

I was able to hear it in French, but my French is grade 11 and it's been a while.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Did you put on the interpretation?

[Ali Islam]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

To whoever on the screen is not able to put it on, the clerk will explain.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Jean-François Lafleur]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

If you go to the lower part of your screen, you have an interpretation button. You can push it and then select the language of your choice.

Do you see it?

[Ali Islam]

Yes, I see it now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I am going to roll it back a bit.

Mr. Fortin, I'll give you a little more time to put your question to the witness again, but could you make it more concise?

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Can all the witnesses hear me when I speak in French? Can they all hear the English interpretation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes, they can.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Are you sure?

You'll understand that I want to make sure I don't talk unnecessarily.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Fortin has this happen to him quite a bit. It would be nice, in the remarks that you make at the beginning of the meeting, to include directions on how to put the interpretation button on so that Mr. Fortin doesn't have to continually experience this.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

If I have to repeat my question, will you reset my time, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes. Please repeat your question.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As I was saying, I thank all the witnesses for being with us today.

Anti‑Semitism is an important, even major, concern for all of Quebec and Canada. Personally, I'm delighted to learn more about the Islamic religion and the lives of Muslims in Canada. Your testimonials will certainly help us.

We've just conducted a study on anti‑Semitism. This has enabled us, in my case at least, to learn a great deal about the Jewish religion and the various challenges facing the Jewish community in Canada. This morning, I'm learning about the challenges you face. I find these lessons very valuable. So thank you for being here.

I have a question for Mr. Islam.

As I understand from the testimony we've heard so far, people feel fear when they walk in the streets, go to school or go to public places. Ms. Al‑Sabawi and a few other witnesses mentioned this to us today. This is important.

The question I have is: Should we treat different forms of discrimination and the challenges they pose in the same way? Let's think about Islamophobia, anti‑Semitism, racism based on nationality or skin colour, or discrimination against LGBTQ groups, for example. Should we treat all these problems in the same way, or should we consider different solutions in the case of Islamophobia, since the challenges are different?

Mr. Islam, I'd like to hear your opinion on this matter.

[Ali Islam]

All the forms of hatred that you mentioned, each and every single one, absolutely deserve addressing. There is some overlap, and where there is overlap, there are common solutions that would work to address some of the similarities.

I mentioned that one of the forms of Islamophobia comes from white supremacism, a belief in the great replacement theory. The Islamophobia that comes from that goes hand in hand with anti-Semitism. I quoted one of the inspirations of the perpetrator of my family's killing. He was inspired by New Zealand. He was inspired by California. The terrorist in California, when he wasn't able to set fire to the mosque, shot people in a synagogue.

You can certainly draw a chain of killers—even in Buffalo, New York, which happened in 2022; in El Paso, Texas; and at the Pittsburgh synagogue. The great replacement theory, the echo chambers that people fall into and the rabbit holes people go down are real things, so addressing them would address many types of hate at the same time. However, doing that wouldn't provide a complete solution.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Islam.

In your opinion, could something be done to largely satisfy the needs of the Islamic community and the Jewish community in Canada? Obviously, I'm not talking about conflicts abroad. Although we all suffer from them, we may have less power in that respect. What could be done here, in Quebec and Canada, to improve the situation for both the Jewish and Islamic communities?

[Ali Islam]

This is where tech companies and media companies bear responsibility. Communication is not just the transmission of a fact from one person to another. It's the transmission of ideas and stories. Any idea that links to an emotion or is in a message that evokes fear, anger or a sense of injustice will trump any communication that tries to be factual. The creators of hate speech will use memes, sarcasm, humour and rhetoric to appeal to adolescents and young people, and the more time people spend online—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Islam. I don't mean to be rude, but my time is running out fast. I only have a minute left, and I'd like to ask Mr. Babili the same question.

Mr. Babili, in your opinion, could anything be done to improve the situation for both the Jewish and Islamic communities?

Your microphone is muted, Mr. Babili.