Evidence of meeting #107 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was islamophobia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Omar Babili  Student, As an Individual
Ali Islam  As an Individual
Shaffni Nalir  General Manager, Toronto Islamic Centre and Community Services
Maryam Al-Sabawi  Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Lafleur
Hamza Omer  Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia
Dareen Shilbayeh  Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I declare the meeting open.

Good morning.

Welcome to meeting number 107 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on March 21, 2024, the committee is beginning its study of Islamophobia.

In regard to avoiding audio feedback, I want to remind members and all meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times.

As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to members on April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents. All earpieces have been replaced by a model that reduces the probability of audio feedback. Please use the approved earpiece. For all unused earpieces, if you're not using them, keep them unplugged. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and protect the health and safety of participants, including the interpreters.

I thank you in advance for your co‑operation.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. All our witnesses are appearing by video conference this morning. In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I'm informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

For the benefit of members and witnesses, wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. As a reminder, all comments are to be addressed through the chair.

For the benefit of any new members attending this morning—welcome to our meeting—and for the benefit of our witnesses, I will use a card to tell you that you have 30 seconds left. When the time is up, I will gently pull up another card. I might give you a couple of seconds extra to wrap up; otherwise, I will need to interrupt you. Don't take it personally. That's just how things are done in committees.

This morning we will have one panel. It will go until one o'clock. All witnesses are appearing by video conference and they will all be on the same panel.

I've been given the names of members who will be asking questions. I will start with—

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Madam Chair, if I may, I'd like to get a clarification before we begin hearing the testimony.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I'm listening, Mr. Fortin.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

You say that the witnesses we're hearing from today are part of a single panel. Usually, we hear from two groups of witnesses in succession and after the first hour, we go back to where we started in terms of time for questions. So, when the second panel arrives, each party has the floor again for six minutes.

Are you going to manage this in the same way today, Madam Chair? In other words, will each party have the floor for six minutes in the first round and for six minutes in the second round as well, so that Mr. Garrison and I don't have speaking turns of only two minutes throughout the two hours after our first intervention?

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Yes, we will follow the same order and speaking time as usual, but I must enforce it, given the time we have.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

First, we welcome Omar Babili, a student who is testifying as an individual.

We have Ali Islam, who is also here as an individual.

We also have with us Mr. Shaffni Nalir, who is the executive director of the Islamic Centre and Community Services of Toronto.

Finally, representing Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia, we have Maryam Al-Sabawi, Dareen Shilbayeh and Hamza Omer.

I will begin with the first person on my list and ask Omar Babili to start.

You have five minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Omar Babili Student, As an Individual

Assalam alaikum. Peace be upon you all.

I would like to respectfully acknowledge that I am an immigrant settler living, studying and playing on the unceded lands of the lək̓ʷəŋən people, known as the Songhees and Esquimalt nations, whose historical relationship with this land continues to this day.

Good morning, Madam Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the invitation to appear before this committee to share my experience and perspective for this committee's study on Islamophobia.

My name is Omar Babili. I am 25 years old and am currently studying civil engineering at the University of Victoria.

My first encounter with Islamophobia was in 2017 in Bellevue, Washington. The Islamic Center of Eastside, a place of worship and community for many Muslims, was burned down in an act of arson. This incident deeply affected me, as I was attending Bellevue College at the time. The destruction of our Islamic centre was a stark reminder of the hatred and bigotry that exists in our society.

Following this incident, my family suggested that I leave the United States due to concerns for my safety. They believed that Canada would be a safer place to practise our religion. However, my subsequent experience revealed that Canada is not immune to Islamophobia.

I am deeply concerned about the drastic rise of Islamophobia and anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian racism across Canada. Let me be clear here. The hate my community is subjected to is not abstract. It manifests in many ways.

On December 3, 2023, my fear became a stark reality. I was volunteering at a peace protest in my city of Victoria, exercising my right to free speech and assembly and calling for a ceasefire, a cause I deeply believe in. I hope this committee and the Canadian government realize how important it is for Canada to stand for peace in the crisis in Gaza.

As the day went on, I decided to renew my parking meter. On the way back, I noticed there was some commotion along the path that I had taken. I saw a man in a red car arguing with a protester. To my utter shock, the situation quickly took a turn for the worse. Suddenly, the same individual who was in the vehicle arguing with a peace protester started accelerating towards me. The sight of the vehicle accelerating towards me was terrifying. My heart started pounding. Adrenaline surged through me. Thankfully, I managed to jump out of the way, avoiding serious injury or perhaps even death.

Following the incident, I was still shaken. I decided to attend an open office event held by Dean Murdock, the mayor of the city of Saanich, B.C., to voice my concerns and to seek reassurance that my incident would not happen again. Surprisingly, after Mayor Murdock was informed that I was the victim of the incident, he showed very little concern and did not express any words of empathy or reassurance to me.

The lack of response and concern from our elected official was disheartening to me. It felt like my experience and the broader issue of Islamophobia were being ignored and did not matter.

Around this time, I had to write my final exams. The anxiety from the incident was overwhelming to me, so I reached out to my university department explaining my situation and asking for an exemption from taking my finals. Their response was far from supportive.

Throughout this ordeal, I received no support from the university. No one contacted me or checked on me, leaving me to navigate this stressful situation on my own.

The trauma of that day has been etched into my mind. I experience sudden flashbacks of what happened, and I cannot help but live in constant fear. Every time I leave my house, I am gripped by anxiety wondering if this could happen to me again or to someone else just because they are exercising their freedom of speech.

This whole experience has made me feel like I have lost my right to express my beliefs freely and safely. The lack of support from our elected officials and the university has only reinforced this feeling, leaving me uncertain and feeling isolated.

This incident is not an isolated one. It's part of a broader pattern of violent Islamophobia and harassment that many Muslims in Canada face every day. The psychological toll of living with this fear is immense and impacts our daily lives. Hate and violence towards our community or any other community should not be tolerated.

Today, I want to ask members of this committee to take strong action against Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian racism and to protect our civil liberties, including the right to peacefully protest.

Thank you.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much

We will continue now with Ali Islam for five minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Ali Islam As an Individual

Good morning.

I speak to you from London, Ontario, the traditional home of the Anishinabe people for over 13,000 years.

This Thursday will be the third anniversary of the day my niece Madiha Salman, her husband Salman Afzaal, her mother-in-law Talat Afzaal, her 15-year-old daughter Yumna Afzaal and her nine-year-old son Fayez Afzaal were deliberately attacked by a pickup truck driven by a young man.

Three generations were erased with the aim of scaring Muslim Canadians into leaving Canada. What was the crime my family committed? They were being visibly Muslim in public. That attack was neither unspeakable nor unimaginable to happen here. For decades, Muslim Canadians have been deliberately portrayed as a fifth column. I'll repeat that. In a pervasive narrative, Muslim Canadians are being actively and intentionally portrayed as outsiders and foreigners—as the “other”. This is a depiction that continues and thrives, an intentional depiction that eventually has real, brutal and deadly consequences. Which of you will say that the conditions that led up to June 6 no longer exist today?

The perpetrator behind the attack on our London family took direct inspiration from two men, highlighting the international interconnectedness of ideological hatred. The first was a 2019 terrorist attack at a mosque in New Zealand that left 51 dead. The second was a California attack, also in 2019, inspired by the New Zealand manifesto. This man tried to set a mosque on fire, and when that arson was thwarted by congregants who happened to be inside the mosque, the man escaped and shot three people in a synagogue instead. What this tells us is that hate is transferable.

The innocence of all the children in my family vanished, especially that of my nine-year-old great-nephew, now an orphan. He has come face to face with the most evil fruit of what is a socially acceptable and unchallenged othering, the end result of a monolithic labelling of Muslims that believes deviant acts committed overseas are somehow the responsibility of individual Canadian Muslims to shoulder. The shameless othering of Muslims in daily life doesn't even feel the need to hide its face. I told Fayez Afzaal that a criminal just a few years older than Yumna ran over everyone, leaving nobody alive. “Not even one?” is what he asked. This is the price of Islamophobia that Fayez has to pay for the rest of his life.

My youngest son thought, “How could someone kill another person without knowing them, and even if someone hated a person, why would they kill them?” In his sweet innocence, he thought that if the criminal had taken the time to sit down for kebabs and a mango smoothie with our family, the criminal would have changed his mind. My son now wonders if his native Canada is really a safe place. Does his Muslim identity make him less Canadian?

As Muslims, we pray five times during the day. In the past, when my son had to pray in public, he had no issue, but now when he has to pray, he's conscious that people are judging him, or worse, that someone will desire to hurt him. He wonders when he puts on his hockey jersey with the name “Islam” emblazoned on the back what name or comments other parents may throw. He says that he used to look at his home as a safe place. “Canada is still my only home,” he says, “but now I'm not so sure how welcome or safe I feel.” He is 13.

My middle son, a teenager one year younger than Yumna, told me that hatred of Muslims has taught him that it's dangerous for a Muslim Canadian to feel attached to anything or anyone because nothing is guaranteed, not even tomorrow. He's 16.

My daughter, my eldest child, just two years older than Yumna, lost her vivaciousness and sense of belonging. She fell into deep isolation, using it as a shield in an environment that was telling her that Muslims do not belong. She says that she didn't feel heard or valued by society. She has learned that striving for happiness is unrealistic; instead, we should strive for peace. She is 18.

For my wife, the effect of the violent expression of Islamophobia is that, in her mind, she now says a final goodbye whenever the children and I walk out the door every single day. It's exhausting for her, but this is her reality. She has lived through a war and seen and experienced violence overseas, but she never felt as vulnerable as she does now. She says perhaps it's because she felt lied to about Canada's diversity and promise of equality for everyone. She feels short-sighted for believing that this promise was for everyone. Since the attack, she has lost faith that society will give equal worth to its citizens. Is equal worth only for Canadians of European heritage?

A young woman in my family who wears the hijab is scared about the what-ifs when she steps outside. The hijab, a sign of humility, a signal to others about her honesty and devotion, now makes her a walking bull's eye. Not only does it put her in danger, but it puts anyone alongside her in danger, so on top of carrying fear, she now has to carry guilt.

As we approach the third anniversary of the attack on our London family, let me read to you some of the comments sent in over the last few weeks to the volunteers and the City of London employees organizing the vigil on Thursday evening. “Islamophobia is not a thing.” “When will the City of London stop sucking Islamic ****?” “Stop pandering to a people who would sooner slit your throat than help you.” “People like you are the problem.” “What have ‘muslims’ done for us, besides nothing?” “No sympathy.” “Stop terrorizing Jewish folks in Toronto.“ “Piss on Islam.” “You all will be held accountable. We are coming for all of you.” “Keep London Pure.”

As a family that was the victims of a hate crime, we feel there is an unrealistic lack of resources and insufficient willpower to understand hate and to talk about how it develops, how it's propagated and how it can be combatted. I ask Parliament to do a better job of explaining why Islamophobia matters if it only affects 5% of the population. Is it real? Is it being exaggerated? Why should 95% of Canadians care about it? I ask parliamentarians to say what should be obvious: Is Canada ultimately a nation for the descendants of white Europeans, or is it something else?

Listen to your conscience. Stop the intentional othering and dehumanization of Muslim Canadians. Look to your right and left when you sit in the House, and call out your colleagues. We are Canadian. Pass or amend the online harms bill to protect our youth, but get it passed.

I've seen foot-dragging at the provincial level with no passage of the our London family act, the act that includes proposed changes to education and creates safe zones around religious institutions. There's a Senate report on Islamophobia that came out in November 2023. Will this committee be taking that off the shelf?

I saw, Madam Chair—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

I'll step in. I've given you a bit of extra time since we have one panel of witnesses today. We'll come back to you in the rounds of questioning.

We will now go to Shaffni Nalir, general manager of Toronto Islamic Centre and Community Services.

11:15 a.m.

Shaffni Nalir General Manager, Toronto Islamic Centre and Community Services

Good morning, Madam Chair and honourable members. Thank you for the invitation to appear before this committee for its study on Islamophobia.

My name is Shaffni Nalir. I grew up in Toronto, where I currently live with my wife and four children. I immigrated with my parents, who fled civil war and religious persecution in Sri Lanka. I grew up going to the Bond Street Nursery School, which was operated by the Metropolitan United Church. I grew up, like most Canadians in my age group, with 50¢ freezies, saving up pennies to buy candy from the corner store and watching The Elephant Show with Sharon, Lois and Bram. However, unlike most Canadians, I can brag that I saw them live—twice.

Growing up as a visible minority, you learn to have thick skin. Don't disrupt the peace. Stay quiet and absorb the offhanded insults, sarcastic comments and occasional physical bullying. Up until recently, I stopped seeing myself as a grateful guest in Canada and realized that I am in fact a host, and I hope to be a gracious one. Canada is as much my country as any other Canadian's.

I want to share our community's experience with Islamophobia and hate-motivated violence targeting our places of worship. I'm the general manager at the Toronto Islamic Centre and Community Services, the first and only mosque on Yonge Street and the only mosque in the University—Rosedale riding. On October 10, 2020, our mosque received a threatening email from an individual claiming to be associated with the Jewish Defense League, or JDL, an organization listed as terrorist by the FBI. Some of the content of the threatening email included, “We will [kill] every muzzie. We have the guns to do a Christchurch all over again”. We reported this threat to local law enforcement, and they advised us to close the mosque for a few days as they assessed the threat. For four long weeks, our mosque was closed to the public and to our congregants. There was fear and panic among them.

I want to remind this committee that our community lives with the trauma of the Quebec City mosque terrorist attack that took the lives of six worshippers in January 2017. During this time, my family was concerned for my safety and would often discourage me from going to our mosque to do any administrative work for fear that I would not return home. Since that incident, we've had several hate-motivated graffiti incidents at our mosque and the occasional banging on our doors and windows while we were inside praying.

However, on November 18, 2023, threats to our mosque turned into action. At around 6:30 in the morning, just after the morning prayer, I, along with around 50 congregants, including small children, heard several loud bangs on the windows and door of our mosque. A few congregants and I rushed outside to see what occurred, only to be met with an individual on a bike hurling racist threats at us, saying, “You effing Arabs. You effing Muslims. We're going to finish you all.” Then this individual spat several times in our direction and rode off.

I went inside to call the police and report what happened. Shortly after, this individual returned and threw a large rock at a group of congregants who were socializing in front of the mosque. Thankfully, he narrowly missed the elderly caretaker of the mosque by a few inches. He then yelled, “You're all dead” and sped off once again.

I and a few congregants chased him down and managed to corner him. Thankfully, at the same time, a traffic officer happened to be in the area to help control the situation. Police arrived on the scene shortly after. After the officers learned what had happened, they proceeded to arrest him. I felt a huge sigh of relief. Later that evening, Toronto police released a statement. We learned that this individual had also committed several other offences a few days prior and had attacked two other individuals because of their faith. He was charged with a total of 14 charges.

Since that day, I cannot fully focus on my prayer in the mosque because I'm always thinking about who will walk in and how I will respond to protect my community members. Every time I hear the door open, my whole body tenses up because I fear the worst. My children grew up at this mosque. In fact, my youngest son took his first steps in this mosque. My wife and I, along with many other parents, consider our mosque to be a safe space for children to roam freely, without parents feeling the need to worry. This individual robbed our community of its sense of safety at our mosque, which is the foundation of our community.

I admit we were afraid, but we were not deterred. We still pray in congregation but have increased our annual security budget from $4,800 to $36,000. Our budget includes 24-hour monitoring and recording, and active-shooter drills and training for our congregants. Nowadays, we always have worshippers standing guard while others pray.

Today, I want to ask this committee to take action against the Islamophobia and violence that our communities are facing and ensure that our government provides protection for our places of worship.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much.

Next we have the Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia. I understand that Maryam Al-Sabawi will be presenting on behalf of the group and that two others will also be available to respond to questions.

I will be lenient with my time, because I understand you thought you had a bit extra. We'll do our best.

Ms. Al-Sabawi, the floor is yours.

11:20 a.m.

Maryam Al-Sabawi Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia

Good afternoon.

My name is Maryam Al-Sabawi, and I am a grade 12 student.

Yumna was my close friend. Yumna and I had been in the same class since the second grade. In high school, we joined the International Baccalaureate program together and shared almost every class. We ran for student council as a duo. We planned to start a business together, whose profits, we agreed, would be donated to charity. We planned to go to university together. We often spoke of our futures, our hopes and our dreams, like most young kids do.

Yumna was more than a friend to me. She was a confidante, a support system, a study partner, a secret keeper and a giver of hope. Most importantly, she was a constant reminder that good friends do exist.

I miss Yumna. Not a day passes that I don't think of her. I miss her laughter, her smile, her kindness and her sense of humour.

If only we could press rewind. This is what I do each night. I rewind the memories, rewind the sound of her laughter, rewind the endless text messages and rewind the conversations that so deeply connected me to her. I even rewind June 6, 2021. That's when I wish I could press pause. But I can't.

The thought of my friend being targeted, hunted in the streets, mowed down and killed just because of her Muslim faith has been very debilitating, especially as a 14-year-old Muslim girl. Can you imagine how difficult it has been to process what happened? Can you imagine the difficulty of simply existing, feeling safe or trying to move on?

Three years have passed, and parts of me have gone with it. Losing Yumna has left a gaping hole in me. There aren't enough words in the dictionary to describe how difficult these past few years have been. I have been consumed by the thought of what she used to be, what she could have been and what she is. Night after night, I've awoken to the same dream—Yumna being run over as she walks home with her family. I wake up in a sweat, thinking, “Don't worry, Maryam. It's only a dream.” But it's not.

The grief is overwhelming, so much so that at times I'm no longer recognizable to those who love me. At times I'm not even recognizable to myself. I'm not the same. None of us are. How could we be? Most 14-year-olds don't have to worry about burying their friend and then having to figure out how to make sure they don't have to bury any others. I never imagined that the most formative years of my life, my teens, would be spent fighting hate and Islamophobia so that others would not experience the pain that my friends and I have had to experience.

The world placed a responsibility on our shoulders that would have crushed a mountain, but we had to carry it because others haven't. We had to carry it so that no one else would feel the pain that we have felt. We had to carry it because if we didn't, it seemed as though no one else would.

Sleepless nights, fear of trucks and an inability to go for walks have caused me to reflect on what was actually taken from us on June 6, 2021. We didn't just lose Yumna and her beautiful family. We also lost our sense of belonging, our sense of community, our sense of safety and our sense of self. We even lost our innocence. The world isn't as kind as we had believed it to be. All of it was taken because of hate that was left unchecked, hate that was given endless opportunities to grow and hate that was carefully incubated through the silence of others.

I often think of Yumna's last moments. I often imagine her lying alone. I wonder if she was afraid, if she felt pain or if she knew that death was imminent. These thoughts keep me up at night. Just when my mother had finally convinced me that she had died on impact, I learned at the trial that her eyes were open, that she was foaming at the mouth and that perhaps she was trying to speak. I wonder what she wanted to say. I wonder what her message to you would be. I wonder how many others have to die.

Once again, I feel paralyzed, moving through the motions, struggling to exist and struggling to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else. I'm exhausted. My family is exhausted. My friends are exhausted. My community is exhausted. We cannot even grieve in peace. He took from us what did not belong to him, and there is no way to give it back.

The grief is overwhelming, and we have been forced to carry the weight of that grief. That grief hurts. It stings, it burns, it shatters, it crushes and it can even kill. It has robbed us of our dreams, our hopes, our peace and even our sense of self. That grief has been the greatest equalizer in our community, as no one has been able to escape it.

It is our hope that our government will stop using language that dehumanizes us, whether it's referring to Muslims here or Muslims abroad. It is the continuous dehumanization of Muslims that enables others to justify our killing and enables the violent Islamophobia we continue to experience in our schools, in our streets and in our communities.

It is our hope that our governments, on all levels, will recognize the importance of education in addressing hate towards Muslims and will use education as a tool to combat this hate. It is our hope that our government will put politics aside and put people first.

I have to leave because I have a class, but my friends Hamza and Dareen from the YCCI will be answering questions on behalf of the YCCI.

Thank you.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you. I was advised ahead of time.

Before you go and before we start questions, let me thank all of you for coming today and for the bravery you have shown by appearing before this committee to give your heartfelt remarks. We deeply appreciate that and our condolences go out to you and all the family for the loss you have suffered.

We will now begin with our questioning and will have six-minute rounds. We will start with Mr. Moore.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses—including Maryam, who's just left for her class—for powerful testimony and for turning the pain and personal loss that you've experienced into trying to solve some of the problems of today and hopefully improving the situation here in Canada.

I want to ask Dr. Islam a question.

First, Dr. Islam, thank you for your powerful testimony. You've suffered personal loss and we appreciate your perspective on this.

I noted in an article I read that cited you that you don't use the name of the perpetrator who took the lives of your family members. Likewise, with the Quebec City mosque shootings, where six individuals were killed, you said that you wouldn't use the perpetrator's name. I want to ask you a question about that.

The law had been changed previously so that in cases in Canada—fortunately rare cases—of mass murder or multiple murder, for individuals who perpetrate these heinous crimes, there would not be a sentencing discount, so to speak, for the fact that someone took more than one life. They would get consecutive life sentences.

Previous to the change in law, if someone—we heard recently of the story of Paul Bernardo—took multiple lives, they could only get one period of parole ineligibility, which is 25 years. Subsequent to the change that was brought in, an individual, like the individual who shot three RCMP officers in Moncton, could receive consecutive periods of parole ineligibility. That person received a 75-year sentence instead of a 25-year sentence.

We heard from victims' families. The widow of one of the victims of one of these crimes said that while this doesn't bring back her loved one, she does take solace in that her daughter will not have to attend parole hearings every two years to try to keep this individual behind bars.

As you are probably well aware, a few years ago the Supreme Court of Canada struck down this law on consecutive periods of parole ineligibility. There was some strong commentary afterwards. I know that the former president of the Islamic cultural centre, where the shooting took place, expressed disappointment with the court's decision, saying, “In our view, this decision fails to take into due consideration the atrocity and the scourge of the multiple murders which are multiplying in North America, as well as the hateful, Islamophobic and racist aspect of this crime.” He also said, “Our deep concern is about the orphans that will see the murdering person in the roads of Quebec City 25 years after this tragedy.”

Do you feel that we as a Parliament or the government should take some strides to respond to this court decision?

11:35 a.m.

As an Individual

Ali Islam

Mr. Moore, the way I understand it, the sentencing and the court system fall under the purview of the Attorney General and Minister of Justice, while the parole system, as it is, falls under the purview of the Minister of Public Safety. There are probably some good reasons for making this separation. Personally, I don't think it is working properly for Canadians, particularly the Canadians who have been victims of a hate crime or who have been the victims of, let's say, a mass murderer or serial killer.

The mandate for the public safety minister and the parole system seems to be rehabilitation. It seems to be weighted very heavily toward rehabilitation without giving proper weight to deterrence. Maybe there was a formula at some time that worked, but the formula isn't working now.

I think one easy solution to make sure that people who have committed the most heinous of crimes—terrorizing Canadians—stay in prison lies with the parole system. It should be making sure that they stay in. Whether one is rehabilitated or not, weigh the other variables that were behind the circumstances of the crime. Weigh all the other victims. With hate crimes, the victims aren't just the immediate family and the people who died. They're everyone else who was affected.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Doctor, for your response.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab

Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.

Ms. Zahid, you have six minutes.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Omar Babili.

First of all, I'm happy that you are safe today and that the incident involving you did not turn fatal. I have a simple question for you. Do you believe the person who attacked you did so because you are Muslim? What do you believe drove him to take the violent and despicable measure of going out and trying to ram someone with his car who was visibly Muslim?

11:35 a.m.

Student, As an Individual

Omar Babili

Multiple factors came into this. First of all, I think what agitated him was that we were protesting for Palestine that day. However, I can say there was Islamophobia in it as well, because after the incident happened and the police arrested him, he was making racist comments to the other protester who was arguing with him earlier, saying, “Go back to your country” and making other racist comments.

It was both Islam and us protesting for Palestine that day that agitated him into doing what he did to me.

11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

My next question is whether you feel your university stood by your side in this horrible incident. Do you feel it is protecting you and the other Muslim students on campus? Can you explain that?

11:35 a.m.

Student, As an Individual

Omar Babili

After that incident happened, no one reached out to me from my university or the department, even though I contacted them. I explained my situation and what happened. It seemed like they did not care what had happened to me. No one reached out to me.

I had to go through my exams. It was very stressful for me to go through them. I had four exams, and they were finals on very hard subjects, but I had to get through them on my own. No one reached out to me or showed any concern.

June 3rd, 2024 / 11:35 a.m.

Liberal

Salma Zahid Liberal Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

My next question is for Ali Islam.

Mr. Islam, first of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your family members in an Islamophobic act of terrorism. Do you feel that justice was served through the court process, or do you feel that the same environment of hate and Islamophobia that led to this tragic act of terror still exists in Canada today?

11:40 a.m.

As an Individual

Ali Islam

I think the justice system did what it could under the limits it's operating under. There are constraints, and I'll explain some of them.

The committee is interested in learning about Islamophobia. It is not one disease entity. There are many different types, and it has many different manifestations. The most benign form, if we can look at it from a disease model, is borne from ignorance about Muslims. There's a sly and sinister form borne from, let's say, geopolitics, where anti-Muslim hatred is used as a justification to keep Muslim voices out of the top spheres of power and influence—and that's intentional.

There's a form of Islamophobia that comes from the far left, and there's a form of Islamophobia borne from white nationalism. That type goes hand in hand with anti-Semitism, misogyny, anti-Black racism and being anti-LGBT. There are many different paths to the same end result. What we don't understand, I think, is how Islamophobia, when it goes up in one of these categories, affects the others. This is where governments, Parliament and academics can add value. If you don't look at all the different building blocks of hate, I don't think you'll get to some of the root causes behind the hatred that exists.

There's another element that is trying to catch up to the times. The way that hatred was spread in the past is very different from the way it is now. Technology companies have a large role to play, because they're not simple conduits of information. There's a way of getting radicalized and falling into echo chambers and filter bubble. That happens online. That's another big piece that we have to catch up on, and simple fact-checking isn't enough to keep people falling into circles of hate. Source-checking needs to be a big variable in how we look at how hate is spread. I don't think we're doing a good job there right now.