Justice Committee on June 3rd, 2024

[Omar Babili]

As Dr. Islam said, this is where the media takes part. Sharing awareness is what will help Muslim and Jewish communities. We have to share awareness of Islamic beliefs and Jewish beliefs, and share awareness among Canadians. I think this will make people understand what Islam and Judaism are about, and we can come to one solution to reduce hate towards both religions here in Canada.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Could I hear, in a few seconds, the response of one of the students accompanying Ms. Al‑Sabawi?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We'll come back to the others later.

We will now go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Madam Chair, with your permission, I'd like to make a quick comment.

I could see one of the students' lips moving, but we couldn't hear him. Perhaps the clerk could remind us how to activate the microphone, to make sure no one loses any of their speaking time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Does anybody not know how to put the microphone on to speak? You were all tested and the microphones are all working. When you want to speak, just unmute yourselves. Thank you.

Mr. Garrison, we will now go to you for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to start by expressing my condolences to the families that have lost loved ones. I thank the witnesses—and I agree with the chair—for the bravery of being here today.

I know that all members of the committee will want to know of any consequences of your appearance today. I heard from one of the witnesses who appeared in our anti-Semitism study of an attempt to retaliate for their appearance at the committee, and we will be taking measures to make sure that we follow up on that. We care very much and will be very vigilant about any attempts to intimidate people who appear before our committee.

Your powerful testimony today illustrates what I hoped we would achieve. When we started with the idea of studying anti-Semitism, I believed we should also study Islamophobia, not necessarily because they always go hand in hand, but because these are two of the most virulent forms of hatred presently in our society.

What you have said to us today about the loss of a sense of belonging and the loss of a sense of safety is very powerful and is something that Parliament really must address. I want to ask Mr. Nalir from the Toronto Islamic Centre and Community Services what he feels has been most effective in helping restore a sense of security, if that's been possible, and what would be most helpful in trying to restore a sense of security to the members of his mosque.

[Shaffni Nalir]

Engagement with law enforcement and having them present have put a band-aid over the wound and it has helped. We're seeing more engagement than before.

As to the different programs that exist, the SIP program that the government has put out has helped. However, applying for the program and getting approved are extremely difficult. I hear from many mosques in our communities that the program is wonderful as long as you can get into it. When we applied to the program, we had to make a bit of noise before we actually got approved.

I'd say it's about more engagement with law enforcement. The other thing is that when we called the police, it took them quite a while to respond. When places of worship or institutions that are responsible for many people call police, maybe something can be done to have a quicker response time. That would be helpful.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Within the community, have you been able to marshal resources for those who feel most affected by these things? Are there ways that programs can be developed to help the resilience of the community at the mosque?

[Shaffni Nalir]

There are different programs, but to be honest, we just raise it among ourselves. It's too much work to apply for government grants. We're talking about the safety of people, the well-being of people and the trauma that people are going through. We have no time to sit and wait, send applications, hear a response, this and that. We've been told no too many times. It's unfortunate, but we'd rather just protect ourselves by trying to raise money. We have little kids selling cookies to raise money to pay for our security guard. That's the reality at our mosque and at many other mosques I think.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I think all members of our committee would thank you for the work you are doing in your own community.

I'll ask a similar question of the Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia. In the work that you're doing as youths, can you tell me what you find is most effective and most helpful in combatting Islamophobia?

[Hamza Omer, Youth Coalition Combating Islamophobia]

Our main focus at the YCCI is an education and awareness aspect. We have seen a lot from that. However, unfortunately, what remains is that these youth, me included, have to deal with the reality of the situation, as Brother Shaffni was saying. Ultimately, we can only accomplish so much with our numbers when the institutions and governments we are living with use rhetoric that is pushing the line further back every day. There's only so much we can do to educate, while so much of that education is trying to be reversed by institutions and the government through the rhetoric they're using.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for that.

Dr. Islam, I have heard from a number of people suggesting that what we need are community forums to talk about the importance of combatting Islamophobia and other forms of hatred. Do you feel that community forums, perhaps financed by the federal government, might be an effective tool?

[Ali Islam]

No. The messages the government has sent on this I don't think are convincing. I keep hearing “Diversity is our strength”. It's a mantra. It doesn't carry any meaning for me. Why is it our strength? How has government shown that it's our strength? If you don't have an answer to that, I don't think people are going to believe it at face value when you say it.

The protection of any minority, not just Muslims, has to be conveyed by the government. I think it's the government's job to do a much better job of saying, “This is how we protect the most vulnerable or marginalized communities, and this is why we should be doing it.” I don't think putting out more facts is going to sway people who think otherwise. There has to be a much more compelling reason for bringing Canadians, all Canadians, together, and that's the government's job to do.

The othering of minorities happens. As Hamza just alluded to, it's happening at the institutional level. That could be from people who, for political reasons, want to make Muslims the “other”. That has to be addressed.

Parliamentary committees play a role in this. Particularly after the 9/11 era, the individuals and organizations that were asked to speak at parliamentary committees were pulled in from organizations and think tanks that are funded by private donors and private family foundations, not supported by the general Muslim populace or scholars at reputable universities. If you invite pseudo-scholars or partisan ex-Muslims to testify at Parliament, you're playing a role in the othering, and that's not right. House and Senate committees need to start an executive task of source-checking and not just fact-checking, because fact-checking in the modern era doesn't work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you, Dr. Islam.

As you can all appreciate, I'm being very flexible with the time, particularly with the responses the witnesses are giving. Given that we have only one panel today, I'm able to do that. Otherwise, I would not be able to.

We will now go to our second round.

For five minutes, we'll go to MP Ziad Aboultaif.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you, Chair, for including me today on this important issue.

Omar, Ali, Shaffni, Hamza and Maryam, assalam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, and welcome to the committee.

I'm sorry to hear all these factual stories about what has happened, about the suffering. Especially in Canada, it hurts to hear that we still have to deal with these issues, although we believe that we live in a world that is different from what we've experienced in past decades. There is no lack of evidence. There is no lack of incidents happening. I think there's a lack of action.

Dr. Islam, you've mentioned a few things. You said that the government message is not efficient. You believe that there are still things not being acted upon as far as how to tackle and deal with this issue goes. You examined what you call the “disease”, and then you mentioned that there are many types of Islamophobia, which we realize. It could be regional. It could be ethnic. It could be religion- or sect-based. It could be any type or form.

We are facing a big challenge. I know that the Muslim community is not alone. There's anti-Semitism on the rise in the country too.

Dr. Islam, what is the action plan? We need a short-term plan and long-term solutions in this work in progress we are faced with. You're a community representative and you're attached to a family that went through this hardship. How do you see the solution? How can everybody work together? Is there a plan in your mind and in the community's mind? Do you think that's going to put things in a perspective that helps tackle this issue?

[Ali Islam]

It's a great question, Ziad. Obviously, it will take people from many disciplines to do it. It's not just government. It won't just be community leaders.

The role of education is not something to be overlooked. We may tend to pass it off as a provincial responsibility, but for the sake of national unity and cohesion, the education system cannot be overlooked.

One of the drivers of hate is also one of the drivers of polarization. Generally speaking, no matter where you look, polarization has increased over time, and the middle is drying up. People are going one way or the other, and everyone is moving apart. It can be on a variety of issues. It could be on climate change. It could be on vaccines. It could be on anything. This is where the study of polarization has to overlap with the study of hatred. It will take many disciplines to come together.

The reality is that we don't get information anymore from benign conduits. We're being fed more and more information about what we like. If you interact with it, forward it and comment on it, the algorithms assume that you like it. You're going to get more and more. Tech companies know this and they take advantage of it. This serves their purposes. They don't have a duty to be responsible citizens. I think this is creating a wedge in society.

The answer is very complex. As I said earlier, the messaging to the public has to be very effective. It has to appeal to emotion and not be just fact-based. If we start with the education system to inoculate people against different types of echo chambers and inoculate people against logical fallacies and mental traps, that can start at a very young age. This goes beyond teaching math and spelling. This goes to the heart of logic. If we start in the elementary school system, I think we're going to be better off as a populace.

[Ziad Aboultaif, Conservative, Edmonton Manning, AB]

Thank you.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

We will go to Mr. Zuberi for five minutes, please.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being here and to all members for studying this important matter.

This is a very apt conversation. We're having many important conversations about anti-Semitism. Now it's Pride Month. Our government addresses all forms of discrimination, be it anti-Black or other forms that exist in society. This is an extremely important study, and I want to thank the witnesses, especially those who have gone through personal tragedy, for their strength and courage. I hope their healing process is moving ahead.

I only have about four and a half minutes, so I'm asking for concise answers. I want to start off with Mr. Nalir.

Mr. Nalir, you mentioned the security of institutions—places of worship and community institutions. First off, are you aware of the security infrastructure program? If so—and I'm hoping you'll say yes—do you find it hard to access? Give a simple answer on those fronts.

[Shaffni Nalir]

Yes, I'm aware of it. It's easy to access, but hard to finally put the application through.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

What I hear is that you're aware of it, and that, in effect, it's hard to access because it's hard to put the application together. Is that correct?

[Shaffni Nalir]

Yes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'm assuming you want ease, facilitation and help in putting that package together. Would that help your institutions and, to your knowledge, other institutions be better secured in the future?

[Shaffni Nalir]

Yes. Anyone in an emergency should be given a liaison for the application.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you so much. The liaison idea is a great idea.

I'd like to move on to Mr. Ali Islam.

You referenced a really important piece of legislation, Bill C-63, which is the online harms act. I'm quite preoccupied with the online space. I've noticed on my own social media that when I post about certain issues, there's a lot of trolling. I don't know if it's from trolls in particular or bot farms, but I have a lot of trolling and a lot of it's hateful. I can't delete the middle fingers. I can't delete the hateful comments towards other identifiable groups.

I'm wondering if you think, from your knowledge, that Bill C-63, the online harms act, will help address the issue of misinformation, bots and hate that's being spewed online.