Justice Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Dr. Jasmin Zine]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will now start with our six-minute rounds. I will be careful of members' and witnesses' time here.

We will start for the first six minutes with MP Redekopp, please.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I too want to offer my heartfelt condolences to the Afzaal family and to the entire Muslim community. This family, of course, tragically fell victim to a terrible act of terrorism in London three years ago today. This senseless act not only deprived us of precious, innocent lives but also shook the very foundations of our communities, leaving scars that may never fully heal.

The pain and loss experienced by the Afzaal family and countless others affected by other acts of violence serve as stark reminders of the urgent need to confront and eradicate Islamophobia in all its forms.

Even in Saskatoon, we've had incidents like this. In 2021, Muhammad Kashif was out for a morning walk at 5:30 in the morning, and he was attacked. Not only was he stabbed, but his beard was cut, and I know that hurt him very deeply.

These acts are happening right across the country, and it's imperative that we stand united in condemning such acts of bigotry and hatred, reaffirming our unwavering commitment to the principles of equality, diversity and respect for all.

Prior to 2019, my interactions with the Muslim community were limited; however, since becoming an MP, I've endeavoured to cultivate sincere relationships with my Muslim brothers and sisters. I've done this not only in Saskatoon, where I represent the riding of Saskatoon West, but also in Toronto and the GTA, working with other Conservatives to build meaningful relationships within the Muslim community in Canada.

What I've discovered is that Muslim people embody the values of faith, family and freedom, and of course these are basic Conservative values. Of course, Muslims make significant contributions in a very positive way to our community. It's been a very great honour for me to develop relationships within the Muslim community.

Dr. Emon, if we're to reduce Islamophobia, do you believe that we need to encourage the building of relationships between Muslims in Canada and all of the other people groups we have? If so, how do we best accomplish this task?

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

I think creating more positive relationships is always a better mechanism than otherwise. In terms of the how, I think that there are many mechanisms for us to do that.

I'm grateful for the government's support of the Muslims in Canada Archives, which we run at the Institute of Islamic Studies. I can say that one of the things we're experimenting with is storytelling through material culture and artifacts that we've now collected. Storytelling offers one way.

Beyond that, and part of what I would like to remind you about, based on my written submission, is that I also think we need to take accountability. I think accountability and a hard look at our own institutions and the policies that we have put into place need to be addressed. I'm happy to provide a brief on some recommendations I've made in other settings relative to that, whether to the federal or provincial governments.

Thank you.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

Do you think that education and awareness initiatives are helpful in combatting Islamophobia?

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

I think education and initiatives can be very helpful in this context. Again, the issue is in the how, and how it's centred.

We've chosen, in various ways, to centre the voices of those who have oftentimes been marginalized from our mainstream media. In the Muslims in Canada Archives, for example, we try to centre the voice of Muslims through their artifacts. We oversee a Hearing Palestine program; the idea there is to centre the voices of Palestinian Canadians and others to centre that narrative.

The challenge, of course, is creating the space for centring those voices, and I would hope that we could continue doing that.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Thank you.

You're well aware, I believe, of Senator Ataullahjan, who's a Muslim Conservative senator. She's dedicated a considerable part of her career to fostering understanding among diverse communities. It was through her leadership that the Senate produced the study on Islamophobia, and I'm sure you've read that.

Several of the recommendations in there dealt with the CRA and their decisions related to the charitable status of several Muslim organizations. I've spoken with several of these organizations and heard first-hand the difficulties they encountered with the CRA.

Dr. Emon, what changes would you like to see within the CRA to ensure that Muslim charities are treated the same as all other organizations?

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

I think the biggest challenge with the CRA is that the CRA is a tool or an instrument of a whole-of-government policy regarding national security. One of the challenges I've noticed is that as an executive arm of the tax authority, they're subject to policies from Public Safety Canada, the Department of Finance and so on and so forth.

What I would ask is if it's possible to draw upon the NIRA report that our working group did. One of the concerns I have is that because Muslim charities are uniquely related to the larger world of anti-terror financing, we will really need to start thinking hard about how our national security regimes are also accounting for policies like GBA+, coming out of WAGE, as well as charter section 15 concerns.

I would hope that the committee would take a look at that working group report with the Minister of National Revenue, which outlines in greater detail how we locate these issues.

[Brad Redekopp, Conservative, Saskatoon West, SK]

Within CRA itself, do you believe there are things that need to be updated and changed, regardless of the whole-of-government side of it?

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

As we think about the national security regime and the way it operates in the case of anti-terror financing across 13 to 15 agencies, one of which is the CRA, we would need to think about how units like RAD, the review and analysis division of CRA, and the charities directorate are incorporating section 15 and GBA+ models. They're very good at incorporating FATF recommendations and guidelines, and they're very explicit about it—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much—

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

I think we need the same explicitness.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We'll now go to MP Ehsassi, please.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and allow me to start off by thanking our witnesses. I have to confess that I found your opening remarks very helpful, in particular the distinction between anti-Palestinian hate and Islamophobia, as well as the need to look at this from a comparative context.

Obviously Islamophobia, regrettably, is alive and well, and it's incumbent upon all of us to take it very seriously, especially on a day like this, the third anniversary of the tragic incident in London.

I will start off with a question for Professor Zine.

Professor Zine, we heard that, arguably, Islamophobia is raging here in Canada more than it is in other jurisdictions around the world and in other G7 countries.

First, would you agree with that? Second, to the extent that this may very well be true, why is that? Could you kindly advise as to what it is that we're not doing sufficiently in Canada?

[Dr. Jasmin Zine]

I think what was said earlier was that Canada leads the G7 in terms of the kinds of violent attacks that have been perpetrated, deadly attacks, against Muslims. That is something that is unique about what we've seen in Canada.

However, Islamophobia is, as I've mentioned earlier, a global scourge, a global condition, and it has its own sort of national variants and histories and so on that we are seeing. Within that context, there's one thing I mentioned but didn't get to talk about: What is unique about Islamophobia, particularly in Canada and the United States—and elsewhere, but it hasn't been as well documented outside of these two jurisdictions—is the way that Islamophobia is networked and purveyed through various groups in this country. White nationalists, far-right media, Islamophobia influencers, Muslim dissidents, Hindutva activists, pro-Israel fringe-right groups, conservative think tanks and security experts all work together in concerted ways to promote demonizing anti-Muslim campaigns.

That's something I documented in a 250-page report on the Canadian Islamophobia industry. That's something that's unique to Islamophobia as a form of oppression, in that there is an industry behind its promotion. For example, in the United States, the Islamophobia industry circulates a staggering $1.5 billion through 39 anti-Muslim organizations to promote Islamophobic propaganda. This is something that is unique to Islamophobia. I've documented what those associations and networks look like in this country, and I think that's something to really begin to consider. We need to understand how a form of oppression is constructed and how it operates in order to understand how to intervene in it.

That's why I want to also echo that it is important to look at Islamophobia as intersectional. We've talked about gendered forms of Islamophobia. We heard earlier about a recent attack against a Muslim woman who was protesting. We have a whole history of gendered Islamophobia in Canada, including Law 21 and so on, but Islamophobia is also intersectional with anti-Arab racism, anti-Black racism and anti-Palestinian racism, which itself does warrant specific recognition.

I just wrote an article in The Conversation Canada about why APR must be included in Canada's national anti-racism strategy. I want to say specifically that when we talk about Islamophobia, anti-Palestinian racism was built on the architecture of Islamophobia, but it has unique features that distinguish it and warrant recognition. Examples are denying the Nakba, justifying violence against Palestinians, exerting pressure to exclude or pressuring others to exclude Palestinian perspectives and failing to acknowledge Palestinians as an indigenous people with collective belonging and rights in relation to occupied historical Palestine—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Professor.

That's very helpful in terms of identifying the problem, and I very much appreciate that, but as lawmakers, the question of a solution remains for us. What is the solution, and what would you recommend? What would be the measures you think could be very helpful in pushing back Islamophobia?

[Dr. Jasmin Zine]

As I said, because Islamophobia is intersectional, and because your committee is seeking to gather knowledge and information to make better recommendations to government, I would suggest.... I actually would like to question why there are no Palestinian voices included today, or Palestinian experts. You need to get information from the right sources. Not to hear from Palestinians on this issue is very troubling. It's very troubling there hasn't been an inclusion of Palestinian scholars and experts. Start with that as you gather your information.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[Dr. Jasmin Zine]

I also want to say that there were a lot of recommendations put forward in the summit that came out. I believe it was after the June 6 tragedy in London, Ontario, the terror attack. There was a federal Islamophobia summit, out of which maybe a hundred recommendations were put forward by the Muslim community and by organizations. I have no idea as to what became of those recommendations. How many have been adopted? How many have been taken up?

The Senate report puts out recommendations. I've stopped making recommendations because there are a lot out there already. I think we would like accountability as to which one of those will be acted upon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, MP Ehsassi.

Thank you, Doctor.

Mr. Fortin, you have the floor.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to continue my fellow member Mr. Ehsassi's line of questioning. As I always say, we are sensitive to Islamophobia. At least I am, and I am sure that the same is true of all my colleagues around the table. We condemn it, and we are looking for solutions. Our approach may be clumsy at times, at least in my case. I don't claim to know the solution, but we're looking for one. I think that's our duty as legislators. That's why you're here today, to help guide us.

Dr. Emon, you hold the Canada research chair in Islamic legal history and serve as director of the Institute for Islamic Studies at the University of Toronto. I'm sure you have looked at the issue from a number of different angles. First, I would like to know what you think the Government of Canada could reasonably and effectively do.

As you know, we have also heard from witnesses over the past few weeks about anti-Semitism. It seems to me that there are parallels between anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. I understand that they are not the same thing, since they are directed at two different communities, but the fact remains that they are expressions of hate. Children and teenagers are being threatened or harassed in schools, mosques and places of worship in general. I don't want to just talk about one religion in particular.

I would like to know, first of all, whether there are any useful and reasonable solutions to the problem of Islamophobia. Second, I would like to know whether parallels can be drawn between the various forms of religious hatred, and if so, whether there is a common solution, something that can be done to help eliminate all hate in our society.

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

Thank you for the question.

I am mindful that this is a law-making body at the federal level, so my recommendation might draw upon my written submission, which was targeted towards the federal Parliament. Let me give you an example. It was my fourth example, which I didn't get to.

I am currently studying the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act and the public-private partnerships involved under section 5 of that act to combat money laundering and terror financing.

We know from the Cullen commission in B.C. that anti-money laundering measures aren't really effective through the FINTRAC regime. I am actually interested in the anti-terror financing regime, and my preliminary findings lead me to conclude that the government's regimes for combatting terror financing are little more than crumbling sediments from the moral panic over 9/11. We are over two decades from that tragic day, yet Canada continues to embrace the blunt tools of that era, which had a disproportionate effect on Muslims and whose effectiveness in combatting terrorism is regularly questioned.

One such blunt instrument is the terrorist entities list, but as this body illustrated last year with Bill C-41, tools like the terrorist entities list don't actually account for nuance in policymaking. However, they remain in place as a fearful reminder of the presumed Muslim threat. That would be one example.

I think it was in budget 2022 that you allocated funding to rethink your financial crimes division and how you want to think that through. I would argue that—

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Emon, I'm sorry to interrupt. I know it's very rude and I hate to do it, but as you know, we're limited to six minutes each. I've already used up more than four minutes of my time.

I understand the financial issue, but do you feel that something should be done to curb hate against the Jewish community, something that would also be useful in curbing hate against the Muslim community? In our fight against all forms of hatred based on religion, race, gender, sexual orientation or anything else, do you feel that something tangible should be done?

We have a minute and a half left.

[Dr. Anver M. Emon]

As an educator, I would think that one of the things that would be very useful—and I think the heritage ministry has a mandate for this—is to increase spending for increased storytelling, which centres the voices of those most affected. Imagining our minority communities, who oftentimes do not get to voice their own stories in the media.... I would be very interested in seeing more funding allocated in that context.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I am digressing, but I would briefly like to hear your opinion on the issue of anti-Semitism. Should we tackle it or not? Should we only address Islamophobia? How do you see the connection between the two?