Justice Committee on June 10th, 2024

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Okay. Thank you, Ms. Mazhar. I don't mean to be rude, but I have less than a minute left.

Mr. Panju, I'd like you to comment on the same question. I understand that you are a lawyer and chair of the Canadian Muslim Lawyers Association. I am not familiar with your résumé, and you may not be an expert on freedom of expression. However, in your opinion, should we keep this religious exception in the Criminal Code that allows hate to be promoted on the basis of a religious text or, on the contrary, should that hatred be prohibited?

[Husein Panju]

Thank you. I know I don't have very much time to answer this question—in fact, I see that I have 30 seconds—so I'm happy to give more details if this comes around another time.

Ultimately, it may be up to the courts to decide whether or not this bill is discriminatory. Fundamentally, our organization rejects the bill's underlying assumption that religions and religious communities are instigating and fomenting hate. I'm not sure what evidence this assumption is based on, but it sounds a lot like religious and Islamic tropes that have been going on for generations.

Our experience is the complete opposite. These communities instead serve to build inclusion and enable the ability to contribute to our society. The timing of this bill is concerning.

I'm happy to go into more detail when the question comes around again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you.

Mr. Garrison, you have six minutes, please.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to go back to you, Ms. Mazhar, and talk a bit more about the rise in violent hate crimes directed toward Muslim women that you have found in your community. You gave us a bit of detail about that.

Rather than ask you what the government should do at this point, I'll ask you what the community is doing in response to these crimes. How is the community supporting Muslim women?

[Fauzia Mazhar]

Through you, Madam Chair, I thank the member for his question.

I want to start by saying that this is not a problem that Muslim women created or are responsible for. We do not bear the responsibility to tackle this problem. However, as the Coalition of Muslim Women, we have thought from the beginning that this is our home. If there is a challenge in our home, if there is an issue in our home, we will not just sit back and let other people resolve this issue. That really gives us a lot of strength. We have been doing it.

In terms of how the government can support community-level initiatives, funding is very important, but as we have heard from different witnesses today, it's also the action. It's also the role modelling. It's also the language that the different levels of government use. Everything together will create the environment in which Muslim women will be able to live free of not just harassment but also real physical assault, as we have heard so many times today.

Thank you.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Mazhar. I didn't mean to imply that it was the responsibility of the Muslim community or Muslim women. It was simply to say that in the absence of action, I recognize that Muslim women are responding and providing supports to women.

I want to turn to Dr. Macfarlane, who had wanted to intervene earlier. I'd like to give her a chance to provide a response, if we haven't passed that moment. If we have, I have another question for Dr. Macfarlane.

[Dr. Julie Macfarlane]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison.

I have just a quick point on the rise in worrying employment conflict since October 7. One of the things I want the committee to be aware of, and in this way your work overlaps with the work of the heritage committee, is that in these instances, where people raise complaints about Islamophobia and prejudice and are terminated because of a remark they made or simply because they're complaining about hostility in the workplace, they are almost without exception required to sign a non-disclosure agreement. You're not going to know about the number or extent of these instances, because they're hidden in an NDA.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you for that important information, Dr. Macfarlane.

In your opening statement, I believe you ran out of time. You were about to talk about working with young people and students in combatting Islamophobia. Please continue.

[Dr. Julie Macfarlane]

Thank you.

One thing this research taught me was how woefully ignorant I was and how many of us, I believe, have grown up not understanding anything about Muslim culture and about Islam as a religion. I think this is one of many things that we would do well to be preventative about if we want to avoid the kind of confusion and misunderstanding and therefore fear that gets generated in a very sophisticated way by a machine that's been driving that fear. That would be to give more education to young people, so that they understand something more about their Muslim classmates and why a girl in their class is wearing a hijab. It doesn't mean she is being oppressed at home. This may be an important choice for her.

The facility that is increasingly recognized for Muslim prayer in schools is expanded into giving some more information and knowledge to other kids as well, so that they might be able to grow up, unlike this generation, not believing that Muslims are the other and are to be feared.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks very much.

I want to go back to Imam Yousri and ask about resources available in the Atlantic region.

You talked about there being no hate crimes unit, except in Halifax. What is the general experience when people experience hate crimes, in terms of resources available to them?

[Abdallah Yousri]

Thank you, MP Garrison, for the question.

Actually, there was not a hate crime unit even in Halifax. We had been advocating for this to be established. It was established only two years ago, after the Afzaal family disaster in London, Ontario. Until then, the entire Atlantic Canada region did not have any hate crime unit.

Is my time up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Yes. I'm sorry about that. We may get a chance to come back to you.

Let me now go to the second round.

Very quickly, Mr. Moore, you have up to five minutes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for appearing today on this important study.

My first question for executive director Fauzia Mazhar is about what I think is one of the worst acts of violence and terror in Canada. That was the shooting at the mosque in Quebec City in January 2017.

In 2022, the Supreme Court of Canada heard an appeal from the Court of Appeal of Quebec concerning the sentence that the individual received. I don't use the individual's name, because a lot of the victims' families don't want to use the individual's name. This individual was given a sentence that meant he would not get out of jail and the victims' families would not have to attend parole hearings. Based on the Supreme Court decision in 2022, this individual, who took six innocent lives, will now be eligible for parole when he is barely in middle age.

We have heard at this committee the tremendous burden placed on victims and victims' families through the parole process, whereby every two years the families have to relive a tragedy. We've been calling on the government to respond in some way to that decision on behalf of victims and their families. I wonder if you have any thoughts on that. Should the government respond in some way to that decision, to ensure that we respect those whose lives were lost?

[Fauzia Mazhar]

If I talk from the perspective of the Canadian Muslim community in general, of course there was a lot of disappointment with this decision. It was perceived that Muslim lives are probably not as important as other lives lost. Comparisons were made with other cases, especially the case of the RCMP officers who were killed. There were lots of comparisons and things like that.

However, if you talk to me personally, I would say that hate just did not kill six people that day. Hate also killed a seventh person that day. Similarly, the person is alive, but the person's life is not the same for that person either. Hate does not impact just those who are victims. It also impacts the perpetrator so badly, especially when they're young, a 20-year-old who has killed four people and is put behind bars for the rest of their life. Maybe that's not the answer to hate.

The Waterloo region is renowned for its restorative justice roots, with the Mennonite community's presence there. The CMW, the Coalition of Muslim Women of K-W, worked with Community Justice Initiatives to start a mediation program for identity-based harm and violence called Sulha, which means peace in many Muslim cultural languages.

Personally, I understand the pain of the family. Imagine that 10-year-old or 9-year-old boy. Now he's an adult, and every two years he has to present his case. How traumatic is that going to be for him and other family members? Is there a way to find a middle place? Is there a way where the family doesn't have to go through the challenge of coming back?

This is my personal opinion, but from an organizational perspective, are there ways to rehabilitate? Are there ways to bring restorative justice and mediation, not necessarily in the murder case, as they will have to complete the sentence and things like that—

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

The chair is telling me I have 30 seconds left. Those five minutes go—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

You have 17 seconds.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

I have a question for you, Mr. Panju.

You mentioned the pressure to conform that minority groups can feel within the public sector and other organizations. I think you—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

I apologize, Mr. Moore.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Oh, boy. There we go.

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

We will now go, for up to five minutes, to MP Zuberi.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

Fauzia, it's good to see you in person again. I was happy to visit your community a few months ago. You're doing fantastic work.

I was in London, Ontario a few days ago to mark the third anniversary of the Afzaal family's passing.

I also remember how, on the night of January 29, 2017, I got a call from friends in Montreal, saying they needed somebody to handle English media in Montreal for a vigil that was being done because of the terror attack that happened in Quebec City. I remember at the time that I was not shocked, to be frank and honest, that such a thing had happened in our country and in my beautiful province of Quebec. I was not shocked, because of the conversations happening at the time.

I think this particular study on Islamophobia exemplifies the need to confront discrimination. I'm still amazed at how we can obfuscate the issue. When we're studying this issue, we don't genuinely study it, sometimes. That is disheartening, to be frank.

I am encouraged when I hear, for example, Ms. Macfarlane. She brings me back to the day following January 29—January 30, when there was a vigil in Montreal. It was bitter cold—minus 20. We said, “No politicians on the stage. No politicians. They get enough time to speak.” We had only organizers and activists on the stage. I was one of them. I remember looking out at the crowd in the bitter cold of Montreal and seeing many people from across Quebec society, most of whom did not have any skin in the game whatsoever and who were there in solidarity, saying, “No. Not in our name. This is not our province. This is not who we are.”

I remember how, for the next seven to 10 days, in each and every publication in Montreal and across the province, there were important human stories about who Muslims in Quebec are. They vulgarized who Muslims in Quebec are—meaning they made it plain, instead of putting forth discriminatory things that are unclear and whatnot.

Ms. Macfarlane, in about 45 seconds, can you share your path with us? I think it's very interesting.

Then I want to go to Mr. Husein Panju afterwards.

Please go ahead, Ms. Macfarlane.

[Dr. Julie Macfarlane]

I was responding as a researcher and an academic to banner headlines, which, if I had taken them at face value, would have told me that Muslims were biting the heads off chickens in mosques in Ontario. There was a particular firestorm in Ontario that started this off. It's very important that people understand they have so much to learn here, and not to fear. What I tried to do in my book, in the end, was to say, “Muslims are like all of us. They have their family traditions. They have their issues.”

I also want to add that, in terms of dialoguing—which has been talked about a lot today—one thing I learned is that many of these folks aren't observant Muslims. It has to be possible to include people who wouldn't describe themselves as observant but for whom the cultural precepts are important. They are just as discriminated against as anybody else in these dialogues.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Panju, you mentioned doxxing of students. Do you have any recommendations for us as a committee to give to other bodies around that, in particular the Law Society of Ontario or the Human Rights Commission? You can also submit this response in writing. Also, I'm interested in research around this particular point.

[Husein Panju]

Thank you.

On that point, we would encourage all parties of power to direct employees to abandon all blacklists regarding political expression and to ensure that employees are treated fairly. There should be prohibitive disciplinary measures against students or staff who engage in these sorts of activities as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

If there's anything more, please do submit it in writing.

For the last two and a half minutes, we have Monsieur Fortin.

Go ahead, please.