Evidence of meeting #11 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Di Manno  Counsel, Department of Justice
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Matthew Taylor  General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Welcome to meeting number 11 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, March 31, the committee is meeting to study Bill C-5, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

I would now like to welcome our witness, the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General for Canada, who's appearing in person in the committee room.

I would also like to say that I don't have my flash cards today, so I'm going to rely on the minister and my colleagues to stay within the time. I will have to interject when needed to let you know your time has run out, but I ask that you stay within the time. Thank you.

I give the floor over to you, Honourable Minister Lametti.

1:05 p.m.

LaSalle—Émard—Verdun Québec

Liberal

David Lametti LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's an honour for me to be with you this morning on the unceded land of the Algonquin Anishinabe people here in Ottawa.

I am accompanied by Deputy Minister François Daigle and subject matter experts from the Department of Justice: Matthew Taylor, who is in the room with me, as well as Carole Morency and Andrew Di Manno, who are participating in the meeting via Zoom.

Good afternoon to everyone in the room and to my colleagues online. Welcome to this meeting.

I'm pleased to appear today before this committee to speak about the important amendments proposed in Bill C-5, an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

This bill is part of an effort by our government to combat systemic racism and discrimination. These realities are experienced by too many people who come into contact with the criminal justice system, from their initial interactions with police to sentencing.

Bill C-5 includes three categories of reforms. First, it will repeal mandatory minimum penalties for all drug offences, some firearm offences and one tobacco-related offence. Second, it will allow for greater use of conditional sentence orders, or CSOs. The third reform will require police and prosecutors to consider other measures for simple possession of drugs, such as diversion to addiction treatment programs.

These reforms have been long in coming. Indigenous persons, Black Canadians and members of marginalized communities, particularly those dealing with mental health or addiction problems, are over-represented at all stages of the criminal justice system, but especially in Canada's correctional institutions. This simply cannot continue.

An examination of the factors that exacerbate these disturbing issues reveals that some mandatory sentencing measures that limit judicial discretion have undeniably had a disproportionate impact on the members of those communities. These measures, which were intended to reduce crime by deterring offenders and isolating them from society, have proven ineffective, costly and harmful.

Between 2007 and 2017, indigenous and Black adults were more likely than other Canadians to be admitted to federal custody for an offence punishable by an MMP. Their admission to federal custody with an offence punishable by an MMP almost doubled during those years. For example, Black Canadians comprised 43% of individuals admitted for exporting or importing drugs in 2016-17, and indigenous people comprised 40% of adults admitted for a firearm-related offence that same year.

The sentencing reforms that we propose are consistent with the recommendations that social and criminal justice stakeholders have been making for many years.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission noted the issue of overrepresentation of indigenous people in correctional institutions and called for its elimination over the next decade. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls also called for the government to evaluate the impact of MMPs on the overincarceration of indigenous women, girls and 2SLGBTQQIA people and to take action to address the problem. The parliamentary Black caucus has also called for the elimination of MMPs.

The government is listening and taking appropriate measures. This bill would repeal certain mandatory minimum penalties, or MMPs, but not all. We propose to focus on repealing MMPs that have had the greatest impact on the communities in question, while guaranteeing that the courts can continue to impose harsh penalties for violent and serious offences.

Let me be clear on this last point: these reforms will have no negative impact on public safety and will not signal to the courts that the offences concerned are not serious.

MMPs will be retained for serious offences such as murder, sexual assault, all sexual offences against children and certain offences involving restricted or prohibited firearms or that involve a firearm and are related to organized crime.

As for the second category of reforms, Bill C‑5 will increase the use of suspended prison sentences, also called conditional sentences, or CSs.

A CSO is a sentence of incarceration of less than two years that is served in the community under strict conditions such as a curfew, house arrest, treatment and/or restrictions on possessing, owning or carrying a weapon. CSOs will increase access to alternatives to incarceration for low-risk offenders while also furthering the sentencing goals of denunciation and deterrence.

The evidence is clear. Allowing offenders who do not pose a risk to public safety to serve their sentences under strict conditions in their community can be more effective at reducing future criminality. Offenders can keep a job and maintain ties with their family and community. These measures bring back flexibility in sentencing by allowing judges to help people, not just jail them. For example, a judge can impose a CSO for an offender to serve their sentence at home while receiving appropriate mental health and rehabilitation supports.

The measures allow communities to take on the responsibility for the rehabilitation of their members through a community justice program that we are funding. Experts in the field and in the communities themselves tell us that this is the best way to move the community forward, to move society forward and to help everybody, including victims, heal while maintaining public safety. That is what CSOs do.

The reforms in Bill C-5 will remove many limitations on CSO eligibility, but not all. CSOs will be available only for sentences under two years for offenders who do not pose a risk to public safety. I want to emphasize this part, as I believe there is some misunderstanding that CSOs will become available for all offenders. I repeat: They will be available only where public safety is not at risk.

CSOs will also not be available for some offences, including advocating genocide, torture and attempted murder, as well as terrorism and criminal organization offences when they are prosecuted by way of indictment, for which the maximum term of imprisonment is 10 years or more.

Finally, while it is important to enact sentencing measures that aim to reduce recidivism and overrepresentation, it is equally essential to ensure that there are adequate off-ramps at the earliest stages of the criminal justice process. This is especially true for conduct that could more appropriately be treated as a health concern.

To this end, Bill C-5 will require police and prosecutors to consider alternatives to laying or proceeding with charges for the simple possession of drugs. Alternatives will range from taking no action at all to issuing a warning or, if the individual agrees, diversion to an addiction treatment program. These measures are in keeping with the government's public health-centred approach to addressing substance use and the opioid epidemic in Canada.

The damage caused by this failed criminal justice policy is not simply a Canadian problem. I was in Washington last month and met with a number of bipartisan groups and think tanks working on criminal law reform. The message from all of them was that incarceration has failed. Many states, both Democratic and Republican, have abandoned MMPs because they simply do not work. The reforms we are proposing are the reforms they are advocating, repealing MMPs, bringing greater flexibility to sentencing, and diverting offenders out of the criminal justice system in the first place. These are solutions that will address the problems we face.

In addition to the reforms in Bill C-5, our government remains committed to working with our partners in the provinces and territories, as well as with Black, indigenous and marginalized community leadership in order to eradicate the overrepresentation of these communities in the criminal justice system.

Community safety is what we want. These reforms will help make that happen.

I look forward to answering any questions you have.

Thank you.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Minister Lametti. We really appreciate your presence here today.

Dear members, I'll use a green folder to show when there are 30 seconds left, just so I don't interrupt your train of questioning. I'll use that and give you the grace of those 30 seconds to end your time.

The first round of questioning is to Mr. Moore for six minutes.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing. It's good to see you again virtually, as well as the officials who are appearing with you.

Minister, I know you and I agree with each other from time to time. Bill C-5 is not going to be one of those times. I can tell you from the testimony that we've heard in our deep consultations with witnesses and communities, both rural and urban, as well as various victims groups, that this bill could not be more breathtakingly out of touch at the time we find ourselves in in Canada.

Removing mandatory minimum penalties for serious gun crime, house arrest for serious offences against a person, Controlled Drugs and Substances Act trafficking, production and distribution minimums being eliminated for serious offences that are plaguing our communities.... This bill, quite frankly, flies in the face of those who are calling for safer streets and communities, and it is an affront to victims.

I heard in your opening remarks—it's quite heartening and I'm sure Canadians will be relieved—that you're maintaining the mandatory minimum penalty for murder. I guess that sets the bar fairly low, Minister. We're interested in making sure we have a justice system that's balanced, protects the rights of victims and keeps communities safe.

I want to jump right into questioning.

According to Statistics Canada, women were violently victimized at a rate nearly double that of men in 2019. We know part of this is due to the fact that, according to Statistics Canada research, women were five times more likely than men to be victims of sexual assault. At your appearance at committee on March 10, 2020, you stated that, “despite the robustness of our legal framework in this area, there are still extremely low rates of reports, charges and convictions in sexual assault cases.”

With your Bill C-5, Minister, both sexual assault with a weapon, threats or causing harm, and the offence of sexual assault under section 271 would have mandatory jail time removed, and an offender could serve their sentence from their home community.

Did you consult with victims of sexual assault before making the decision to allow the perpetrators to serve their sentence from home?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I thank the honourable member for his question. Thank you, Rob, if I may.

Yes, we are going to disagree quite strongly on this. I think what is an affront is the continuation of a so-called “tough on crime” policy that has so clearly failed in Canada. It has so clearly failed in the United States. It has so clearly failed in countries like Great Britain. It is being abandoned everywhere. It would be an affront to keep going with that without looking at the evidence and without assessing the impact that these minimum mandatory penalties and the lack of conditional sentence orders are having on the system.

That's what we're trying to do. I don't know where you're—

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thanks, Minister. I don't have a lot of time. My question is, did you consult with victims of sexual assault?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I'm not sure where you're getting the information that we've removed mandatory minimum penalties for sexual assault. That's simply wrong.

Let me point out two things. First of all, conditional sentence orders, as I have said, will be available to a judge only when the sentence would have been less than two years. Obviously, they won't be used in a case where there's a minimum mandatory penalty that's higher than that. In no case will they be allowed when there's a threat to public safety. That's the sine qua non of what we're doing here.

The kinds of situations that you're referring to simply don't exist. Serious offences will always be punished seriously. Sentencing judges will always take the context and circumstances into account, and they will go towards the other end of the sentencing spectrum when it is merited.

What we're doing here is giving the flexibility back when there's some other contextual reason that means that the best thing for the victim, the best thing for the person and the best thing for the community is not to incarcerate the person.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thanks, Minister.

Where I'm getting the information around sexual assault is....

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I'm getting the French translation into my headset. I'll continue—

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I think it's been corrected, Mr. Moore. I believe got the same.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Where I'm getting the information, Minister, is directly from Bill C-5. Offences for which a conditional sentence would be available include sexual assault with a weapon, threats or causing harm, trafficking or exporting, fraud over $5,000, robbery, breaking and entering, and robbery to steal a firearm. These are offences that are taking place in all of our communities. Under your bill, the perpetrators will now be able to receive a conditional sentence, otherwise known as “house arrest”, rather than jail time.

Minister, I'd like an acknowledgement on the source of many of these mandatory minimums that you say are for not serious offences. Do you know the origins in the Criminal Code of the mandatory minimum for using a firearm in the commission of an offence, for example, and for weapons trafficking? On those mandatory minimums, do you know when they were introduced?

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Answer very briefly, please, Minister.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you.

I believe those were introduced under a Liberal government. Correct me if it was under Prime Minister Martin or under Prime Minister Chrétien, but the fact—

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

One of them was introduced under Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau in 1976, and the other under Prime Minister Jean Chrétien in 1995, the point being, Minister, that these are serious offences.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

We'll have to go to the next panellist.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

The point, Mr. Moore, is that there was a rapid increase—

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Minister, I'm going to have to ask you to answer that in the next question or, hopefully, perhaps the next member will allow you some time to answer that.

Madame Brière, you have six minutes.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'll give you an opportunity to finish your answer to Mr. Moore.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you.

Even though some mandatory minimum penalties were imposed under the regimes of prime ministers Trudeau senior, Chrétien and Martin, the vast majority of those penalties were introduced by Mr. Harper's government, which also did away with the conditional sentence option. That clearly led to an at times excessive over-representation of certain groups, particularly indigenous persons, in Canadian prisons and to over-incarceration, a problem we want to correct.

However, these penalties must be repealed because they don't work. Consequently, we have selected some 20 mandatory minimum penalties whose removal would not endanger public safety. For some of the offences that Mr. Moore mentioned, such as those involving a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm or the use of a firearm by organized crime, mandatory minimum penalties will remain. We're really targeting offences involving the use of a gun.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Minister, you haven't told us about your visit to Washington. As you know, many organizations in the United States are striving to right wrongs caused by the failure of decades of criminal justice policies.

Would you please tell us a little more about your visit to Washington and what you learned from those organizations?

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you for your question.

I met some experts from the Brennan Center for Justice, the Sentencing Project and the Council on Criminal Justice. These are bipartisan organizations whose subject matter experts have examined the scope of the over-representation of certain groups in U.S. prisons as well as the effectiveness of incarceration.

They're making the same recommendations we're discussing today: the reduction or elimination of mandatory minimum penalties, flexibility in sentencing, inluding the use of conditional sentences, and the decriminalization of cases resulting more from a health problem.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

According to the government's backgrounder on Bill C‑5, the repeal of mandatory minimum penalties is part of an effort to promote judicial discretion for sentencing.

However, the bill would not remove all mandatory minimum penalties.

If judicial discretion in sentencing is important for some offences, why isn't it for others?

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

We wanted to remedy a quite specific problem, the over-representation of indigenous peoples and Blacks in the judicial system. We therefore targeted offences associated with that sort of over-representation.

We aren't saying that other measures couldn't be evaluated, but we'd like to move forward cautiously and really attack this specific problem. That's why we selected these offences.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

We talked about over-representation earlier.

Bill C‑5 would grant significant discretion to police officers and prosecutors in criminal cases.

How would the changes made by the bill prevent the over-representation of certain populations in the correctional system?

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Consider people suffering from addiction, for example. We think it would be preferable to treat this type of problem as a health problem. Trying these individuals, bringing them before a judge or sending them to prison aren't the most effective ways to improve their situation or that of their communities and families.

Other solutions can be considered. We could reduce the number of people in the justice system by directing them to the resources they need, particularly health resources.

Once people are in the system, we can also use conditional sentences to determine penalties that would allow them to stay with their families, keep their jobs, find the necessary support to improve their situation and reach some form of reconciliation with the victims. The victims are also very important.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Minister.

I'll next go to Monsieur Fortin for six minutes.