Evidence of meeting #11 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Andrew Di Manno  Counsel, Department of Justice
Carole Morency  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Policy Sector, Department of Justice
Matthew Taylor  General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

1:25 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for being with us today.

I almost want to start with the same warning as my colleague Mr. Moore gave you. I'm not sure we're going to agree on Bill C‑5, even though, on the merits, the Bloc Québécois has historically disagreed with mandatory minimum penalties and will continue to do so.

We do think it's preferable to allow judges to determine the applicable penalties in most cases, but not all. On the matter of decriminalizing the use of small quantities of drugs, we think that's more a health problem than a legal problem.

So perhaps we could agree on substance, but we have some reservations with Bill C‑5 as drafted.

You told us at the outset that the bill was designed to combat systemic racism. I'd say you're stretching a point. Systemic racism is a major problem that obviously must be addressed, but first we should determine what it is. I'm not sure that systemic racism, in the sense the present government intends, actually exists. However, that's another issue that we won't be addressing today.

To my mind, reducing the applicable penalties for certain crimes in order to prevent racialized individuals from winding up in prison is an odd way to address racism

Having said that, I'm going to ask you some more specific questions because I only have six minutes, and I can't have more than five left. As you'd expect, we won't be able to address the entire issue in five minutes.

However, I want to validate a point with you.

You say that mandatory minimum penalties would remain in force for serious crimes.

Do you think that weapons trafficking is a serious crime or not?

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

It's a serious crime. That's why the vast majority of offences involving the use of a firearm…

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Minister, my question was…

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I'm going to answer your question, Mr. Fortin.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I can't let you speak for two minutes because I only have five minutes of speaking time.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Yes, but I have to answer your question.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I understood that you think it's a serious crime.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Consequently, it's not included in the bill.

Mr. Fortin, you should read the bill more closely.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Mr. Chair, I'm entitled to use my speaking time to ask questions.

Aren't I?

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Yes.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Yes.

Minister, do you think it's a crime to discharge a firearm with intent?

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

If it's serious in view of the circumstances, the penalty will be harsh.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

So the act of discharging a firearm with intent is necessarily serious.

Is my understanding correct?

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

That's not necessarily the case in some court cases.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

All right.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

If someone…

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Armed robbery…

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Mr. Fortin, you're going to have to allow the witness a reasonable time to answer.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

The witness has the time to answer my questions, Mr. Chair. My questions are simple, and he can answer them with a yes or a no. I don't need any further explanation.

I only have five minutes of speaking time.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

It's not up to you to determine the answer, Mr. Fortin.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

I'd like to speak with the minister at greater length, but my speaking time is limited.

Minister, do you think armed robbery is a serious offence?

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Mr. Fortin, the bill would repeal certain minimum penalties in cases…

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

That's not the point of my question.

1:30 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

We want to repeal minimum penalties in cases where judicial flexibility is needed.

1:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

That's not the point of my question, Minister.

Mr. Chair, it would be good if someone explained to Mr. Lametti…