Justice Committee on April 8th, 2022

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

The commission of an offence with a firearm, trafficking in firearms, possession with intent to traffic firearms, discharging a firearm with intent, robbery with a firearm, extortion with a firearm; according to you, none of that is necessarily serious, if I have understood you correctly. It all depends on the facts and the circumstances.

Is—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I apologize for interrupting you.

That's why judges are given a degree of latitude, so that they can determine the appropriate penalty, in accordance with the seriousness of the circumstances.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Minister, you and I are aware of the increasing amount of violence with firearms, particularly in the Montreal area, but just about everywhere in Canada in recent years.

Do you think that doing away with mandatory minimum penalties for the offences I just listed would send the right message to the public?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

That raises a different problem, Mr. Fortin.

I was very pleased to see you publicly support this very bill in the House of Commons when it was initially introduced.

As was promised during the election campaign, my colleague, Minister Mendicino, is currently addressing the firearms trafficking problem, particularly in Quebec.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I won't go on at length, because I don't have enough time left.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin. Your time is up.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Mr. Chair, these rounds of questions are almost useless when the amount of time is limited.

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

The next round will go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and I thank the minister for being here today.

I know that one of the motivations behind C-5 is to address systemic racism in the justice system, but I want to ask about something I think is very closely related. That's the overdose crisis in Canada.

In 2021, in British Columbia, 2,224 people died from an overdose and a poisoned drug supply. That's at least 2,224 families who lost fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, kids, cousins and neighbours. This is a rapidly increasing problem.

One way that you've talked about it in this bill is with diversion and reducing mandatory minimums, but the First Nations Health Authority in British Columbia reported that indigenous British Columbians are five times more likely to experience an overdose crisis and three times more likely to die from that overdose crisis.

Minister, my question to you is, wouldn't it be better simply to eliminate the criminal offence of possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you, Randall, for that question. I certainly share the concern that there's an opioid crisis, not only in Vancouver and in British Columbia, but across Canada. It is one that is serious.

I'm trying to attack a specific problem with sentencing reform. I would be open to other ways of attacking that problem, particularly working with experts on the ground, with the governments of British Columbia and Vancouver and with my colleagues, the Minister of Health and now the Minister of Mental Health. I don't think we should close off any possibility for solving those problems.

I would also be open to other criminal law reforms. I am certainly investing in community justice centres in British Columbia, particularly in the indigenous communities. They are indigenous-led and actually work with indigenous offenders, many of whom have problematic addiction and opioid challenges.

That's another way I can do it, but I'm willing to work with other colleagues across the board and I'm open to ideas.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Minister, my colleague from Courtenay—Alberni, Gord Johns, has a private member's bill, C-216, that would do exactly that. It would decriminalize personal possession and make a lot of other changes around the possession offences, which would get people into treatment rather than into the justice system.

Are you saying today that your government is prepared to consider that private member's bill?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I'm not going to pre-empt a decision that might be made down the road, but I would certainly consider it with Mr. Johns, as well as with my ministerial colleagues and others who are interested.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

One of the other criticisms that I and others have of this bill is that it picks out only some mandatory minimums. While I agree with you and I support maintaining them for some of the most serious, violent crimes, there are a lot of other mandatory minimums that could be removed.

There has been in a bill in the Senate several times. It's now Bill S-213, which aims to restore discretion for judges even where there's a mandatory minimum in place. If a judge found that there were extenuating circumstances, they could ignore those mandatory minimums. I wonder what your opinion is on that approach.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It is an approach that I evaluated in the conception of this particular bill. You know that I'm always open to working in good faith with colleagues around this table and in the House of Commons across the aisle to make any bill that I'm proposing better. I'm always open to that.

I didn't go with that approach for a variety of different reasons. I think the bill I have tabled is attainable. I think it's feasible. I think it will be effective in targeting systemic overrepresentation.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Yes, of course, we've had a good relationship, dialogue and all of these things. I'm going to ask you about something we've talked about privately so you can say it publicly. That's the question of expungement.

Those who get involved in the justice system for personal possession end up with criminal records that often make employment and housing difficult to find. This bill doesn't deal with expungement for previous convictions. I wonder what your answer is, even though I know it.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It falls under the domain of my colleague, Minister Mendicino, the Minister of Public Safety.

We did have expungement for the so-called LGBTQ “crimes” for members of the public service when we made that apology. We expunged those “crimes” because we wanted those crimes to be treated as never having been a crime.

We introduced pardon reform after cannabis...using the word “pardon” and creating an expedited pardon process because those were illegal activities before we legalized cannabis. That was the distinction.

It's for my colleague to look at pardon reform. I know he is thinking about it. I know his predecessor, Minister Blair, thought about it as well. I understand the impact that pardons have. It's also something that I heard in Washington from bipartisan reformers in the United States.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

We and the Democrats often talk about automatic expungement. We've seen, in the previous attempts for expunging records or having expedited pardons, that an expensive or convoluted process is one that the very people we are trying to help here have the most difficulty accessing. They don't have resources to hire a lawyer or pay fees. They don't have access to the Internet on a regular basis.

I guess I would urge you in any discussions with your colleague to remember that the people we are trying to help here have a very tough time accessing those kinds of processes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Next is a five-minute round to Mr. Brock, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister and department officials. Thank you for your attendance.

It's my first opportunity to talk directly to you, Minister. Hopefully I'll get a number of questions in.

The first one I want to bring to your attention is the timing of your introduction to this particular bill. I remember that day very clearly, because, less than 24 hours removed from your presenting Bill C-5 in the House, we stood in solidarity as members of Parliament, and the entire House commemorated the École Polytechnique massacre from several years ago. We stood for the message that the government would stand strong against all forms of gun violence and to inform Canadians in very clear terms that we would take immediate steps to curb the ever-increasing tide of that criminal behaviour.

I think you'd agree with me, Minister, that the number one responsibility of a federal government is to keep its citizens safe. Do you agree with that?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Look, I'm a Montrealer. I know Polytechnique. I've been to the building; I've been in the room. I know graduates of that program. I remember the devastating impact and where I was when I got the news. I remember that very well.

We take gun violence very seriously. We as a government have reinstituted investing against gun violence across Canada. We have banned assault weapons, the kinds that were used to perpetrate these kinds of crimes, the kinds of weapons that have a place only on the battlefield.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Minister. I have only a few minutes—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We are also fighting trafficking. We've invested historic sums—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, thank you.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

—and reversed the lack of spending that the previous Harper government failed to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Continue, Mr. Brock.