Justice Committee on June 13th, 2024

[George Dolhai]

They are separated there, but the McClellan report looked at that issue and concluded that what we had in Canada was something that was functioning well, and again, in my experience, every attorney general has respected the independence of the prosecution service entirely and scrupulously.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Do I still have time for one quick question? Okay, good.

You mentioned the Afzaal family case, in London. In that case, the person was charged and convicted of four cases of murder, but also terrorism acts, but in the Quebec City mosque killing, terrorism charges were not laid.

I wonder what the difference would be. Could you give your academic opinion on that?

[George Dolhai]

In short, the difference is evidence. Each case has its own evidence and in each case you have to assess the evidence to determine whether, based on the admissible evidence, you can meet the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

That's the difference between the two cases. That's the only difference between the two cases.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

Let me do the same now with the others. I'll just increase the time slightly.

Mr. Housefather, if you wish, you have six minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Hopefully, I will be able to do it in five.

Mr. Dolhai, congratulations on your nomination.

The PPSC is responsible for providing prosecution-related advice to law enforcement agencies across the country. Can you explain how, if you assume this role, you will do that? How will you change what the department does today? What would you do to improve that service?

[George Dolhai]

Part of that service is providing a window in for the police services, on how we would deal with a case if it came to us. When we provide them with advice during the course of an investigation, we're not providing them with advice as their lawyers per se. We're providing them advice about, “If you do it in this way, this is how that will translate into admissible evidence.”

What I would do is increase what we are already doing with respect to training. There's a lot more training that could be done. We would seek to work with the RCMP to determine if there are avenues where we could provide additional training to new officers, for example, at depot.

Also, with respect to the police of local jurisdiction, one of the things that occurs is that there is a relationship we have across the country with all of the local police forces, and we have to adapt to their particular needs and focuses insofar as being able to assist them, both in terms of the mechanics of those operations and in terms of providing them that training and that timely advice.

One of the things I would do as well is canvass the chiefs of police with respect to what they think of the service we're providing. We are, in that respect, like anyone else, and we are subject to feedback from those we're attempting to work with and assist, so one of the things to do is to find out directly from the source.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I agree.

I'll just ask for a brief answer to this one: Do you also work with the provincial prosecution services in terms of coordinating responses and ensuring you have a uniform standard of approach across the country?

[George Dolhai]

We do. We have a heads of prosecution committee, where all of the heads of prosecution meet twice a year. It's a committee where everyone rolls up their sleeves, puts all issues of politics aside and focuses on what is the best way to deal with the challenges we're collectively facing. On individual cases, we also co-operate and have arrangements with each one of the provinces.

There are various forms of arrangements, whereby we will also determine on a major-minor basis who does the prosecution. Is it both of us? Is it one of us that leads if we have the more important or significant charges, or is it something that they do? We also consult extensively with respect to issues relating to how best to deal with extremist violence.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

That leads me, then, to a question that Mr. Mendicino brought up and that Monsieur Fortin then brought up, which is how we're dealing with anti-Semitic hate in this country, and other forms of hate such as Islamophobia.

I want to refer you to recent statements made by Adil Charkaoui. Mr. Charkaoui, in Montreal, on October 28 of last year, made a speech in Arabic, in which he said, “Allah, take care of these Zionist aggressors. Allah, take care of the enemies of the people of Gaza. Allah, identify them all, then exterminate them. Don't spare any of them.” The Quebec prosecution service, the DPCP, determined that there wasn't sufficient evidence to reveal the commission of a criminal offence under, I presume, sections 318 and 319 of the Criminal Code.

Mr. Dolhai, would your office in any way have been involved in offering advice on an issue like that, or will this be an issue in terms of the way we prosecute section 318 and 319 offences that you would undertake to make part of the next discussions with the provinces when you have future rounds of meetings?

[George Dolhai]

I can't comment, Mr. Housefather, on any particular case or any particular situation and what consultations were or weren't had, because those would also raise issues with respect to what was or wasn't referred to us by the police, but certainly I expect that one of the things that will be front and centre in our discussions at our next heads of prosecution meeting, if I were to be there co-chairing that, would be the question of how we co-operate and coordinate around issues as to how to deal with hate crimes and how we ensure there is no light left between the Criminal Code provisions and the terrorism provisions insofar as ensuring that circumstances meriting prosecution are dealt with.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you.

I want to give you the opportunity to talk about your vision for the office. I asked you about it in light of training and consultation with police services across the country. What is your large vision for the office? I understand that you've been there for a while, and that Ms. Roussel has theoretically been director, and not you. Without in any way diminishing all the important work she's done, what would you do to put your own stamp on things? What would you do to change the office in any way?

[George Dolhai]

What I would do is—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Let's leave that response, because I did give six minutes.

I'm now going to go to the final three minutes and three minutes, and conclude.

Mr. Fortin, I'm going to give you an extra 30 seconds. Please go ahead.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Dolhai, I don't have much time, but I'd like to hear what you think the relationship between the DPP and the Department of Justice should look like. I know there is some separation between the two, at least in theory.

How do you see your relationship with the Attorney General and Minister of Justice in the exercise of your future responsibilities?

[George Dolhai]

It's a relationship where both people adhere to their respective roles. The role of the director of public prosecutions is to manage the PPSC. That includes making decisions regarding individual prosecutions and issuing guidelines on prosecutions in general. It is still very important, however, to keep the Attorney General abreast of important issues, so that the Attorney General can provide direction where needed.

The Attorney General is always the one to communicate with the DPP regarding a specific prosecution or category of prosecutions. That communication is always public, not confidential, so that Canadians know what's going on.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

How do you view communication in the opposite direction, when it's the DPP communicating with the Attorney General and Minister of Justice? Would you consider proposing legislative or other changes?

[George Dolhai]

As of now, I don't have any suggestions for the Attorney General.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I'm going to use the scenario I mentioned earlier. Let's say you came to the conclusion that you didn't have the tools you needed to initiate prosecutions in certain circumstances you felt were problematic. How would you go about informing the Minister of Justice?

[George Dolhai]

I would put together a briefing for the Attorney General laying out the repercussions on specific prosecutions or the general conduct of prosecutions by the service. By the way, whenever the PPSC decides not to move forward in a specific case, it always has to explain its decision to the court.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you very much.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I know I'm out of time, but are those briefings public or confidential?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lena Metlege Diab]

Thank you both for those questions and answers.

Ms. Blaney, you have the final three minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I have one more question for you, so hopefully we'll be able to wrap this up.

I know resources can sometimes be a challenge. Can you inform the committee on whether the prosecution service has adequate resources to ensure timely and accessible justice in the three territories where you are responsible for criminal prosecutions? How would you deal with that challenge if you don't have the resources?

[George Dolhai]

We have resources that were allocated to us that allowed us to increase by 25% our capacity in the three northern territories. That has provided significant assistance to us to ensure that continuity that I spoke about, both with respect to Crown witness coordinators and prosecutors, and has enabled us to have those focused initiatives that we have undertaken with respect to the prosecution of violence, especially sexual violence cases, as well as with a number of innovative programs to incorporate, in Nunavut in particular, traditional Inuit justice concepts.

We have a pilot right now that we are launching in three communities, where we will be involving elders directly with us throughout the consultation and consideration process. I'm very excited about it, actually.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, now I have a follow-up on that.

You talked about the work you're doing in Nunavut specifically. In the beginning of your intervention with us, you talked about the meaningfulness of reconciliation and the work you are doing. In this role, how would that influence the work that you do? That's knowing, of course, that indigenous people are largely overrepresented in so many areas, for many complex and important reasons that have not been challenged in the way I would like to see them challenged. I'm just wondering, what will you bring to the table in terms of those skill sets?