Evidence of meeting #12 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was tobacco.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
I'm looking for your opinion. Do you believe this bill will reduce the incarceration of Black Nova Scotians or Black Canadians in the jail systems?
4:55 p.m.
Senior Legal Counsel, African Nova Scotian Justice Institute
As I think people have previously testified, serious offenders will still go to jail, but what it does is give judges the opportunity to impose sentences that are community-based for those who don't need to go to jail. In particular, we know that when you go to jail as a Black person, you're not going to have culturally informed programming. You're going to be deemed a troublemaker more often. You're going to be classified at a higher risk. You're not going to come out of that situation in a place to successfully reintegrate into the community.
That process of reintegration should start immediately upon entering the custodial setting. Not having those programs in place points to the need for the community-based resources that are going to have more of an impact in rehabilitation. I think that's got to be the answer.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS
Can you speak to me a little bit more about conditional sentencing? It requires that an offender have a home and some support. Can you speak to me about the elimination of that, I guess, if this bill does not go through? What are the consequences that you would see for a young Black male—or even a female, for that matter—having that taken away from them in appropriate circumstances?
5 p.m.
Senior Legal Counsel, African Nova Scotian Justice Institute
Maybe the best example to give you is the Anderson case.
A young Black man was pulled over at a random checkstop with a prohibited firearm. Members in his community around him were dying through gun violence. He armed himself not to commit substantive offences but to protect himself. The judge in that case called evidence in from someone who worked in corrections and asked them what was available in corrections if they were to send the young man to jail. The corrections officer gave evidence that there was nothing available in terms of programming. By contrast, she also called in members of the community to ask what was available. They were able to present a couple of options in terms of counselling, education, and those sorts of programs that were going to assist him in the community.
That particular MMP had already been struck down, but in the absence of that, that's someone who would have gone to jail and not received the culturally appropriate treatment that was required in that case. They would have had a worse outcome. Again, that would not have been helpful to public safety, in my respectful opinion.
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Liberal
5 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are for Dr. Robert, first, and, then, Ms. de Kiewit.
Dr. Robert, I gather from your remarks that you are in favour of the diversion measures that would be added, under the bill, after section 10 of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Those measures stipulate that, when an individual is arrested in possession of a quantity of drugs that is not for the purposes of trafficking, that person can be referred to certain resources, such as an organization that will help them by treating their substance abuse as a health problem, not as a public safety problem. I take it that you support those measures, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Specifically, I'd like you to elaborate on what you said in your opening statement about the bill not containing an exemption for professionals who handle drugs on a daily basis. They are doing so not for the purposes of taking the drugs themselves or selling them, but simply because they work with people who have substance abuse issues. I'm not quite sure I understand the problem, so I'd like you to explain it to me.
What exactly do you want to see, Dr. Robert?
5 p.m.
Medical Specialist in Public Health and Medical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, Professor, Université de Montréal and Université du Québec en Outaouais, The DISPENSARY Community Health Center
The people we are concerned about are those who do not have the support of their profession in responding to the distress of users who do not want to die but simply want to alleviate their suffering. We work with other professionals including social workers and psychologists, but outreach workers are mainly the ones in direct contact with users on the street. It is thanks to the trust that we have been able to build with them that they bring in residue on a daily basis so that we can analyze it and share what we learn right away. That is absolutely vital to prevent deaths and overdoses.
In other professional settings, even those where physicians work, people are afraid of being caught with these substances and arrested. What we want to see is recognition and protection for professionals who work with drug users, not just for physicians. They need that protection, even if it's just through good Samaritan legislation, for example.
5 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I wouldn't want to ask you how old you are, but I take it that you have seen quite a bit in your time. You did mention how long you had been practising in the field.
As far as you know, is it commonplace for outreach workers and social workers to handle drugs, not to take them or sell them, of course, but simply as a way to help?
5:05 p.m.
Medical Specialist in Public Health and Medical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, Professor, Université de Montréal and Université du Québec en Outaouais, The DISPENSARY Community Health Center
Now you understand the issue. These workers feel threatened, and society is telling them that they could be apprehended. In that sense, I, too, experience systemic stigma from my fellow physicians. When they find out that I provide care to drug users, they seem surprised that I work with “those people”. That is stigmatizing.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Dr. Robert.
Now I'm going to turn to Ms. de Kiewit.
In Dr. Robert's opening statement, he said that some people with substance abuse issues had health problems and were self-treating. I'm not sure what those treatments are or what that means exactly.
I would like to hear your views on that.
5:05 p.m.
Risk and Harm Reduction Educator, The DISPENSARY Community Health Center
People have countless reasons for using drugs. I, myself, am a drug user. I have also been a front-line worker for more than a decade, providing harm reduction and street outreach. I come from a good family. The first time I tried drugs was in college. I started using for certain reasons and I still do. Through my work, I've met people who began using after having an accident, for example.
A lot of drug users go to the hospital because they're experiencing pain, but they don't receive the treatment they need to deal with that pain once the physician finds out they have been prescribed painkillers or have used drugs in the past. They aren't going to the hospital for detox treatment; they are going to have an urgent health issue looked after. People in those circumstances tend to turn to the black market for substances that help them feel better, so they can keep working and contributing to society.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I have just a few seconds left.
What effect does a conviction for the possession of drugs for personal use have on a person's health?
5:05 p.m.
Risk and Harm Reduction Educator, The DISPENSARY Community Health Center
It affects a person's health in a myriad of ways. I, personally, have a criminal record because of it, and that puts many things out of my reach. It doesn't matter that I work very hard and have been a contributing member of society for more than a decade. I am on boards and do a lot of good for my community.
From a health standpoint, drug users are at risk. I lose people I know every week to the opioid crisis. Yesterday, I found out that a friend of mine had died because she was forced to buy painkillers on the black market.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Fortin.
We'll go over to you, Mr. Garrison, for six minutes.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to stay with Ms. de Kiewit for a moment.
We're talking about Bill C-5 here, but we have another bill before Parliament. It's a private member's bill, Bill C-216, which proposes not to take away mandatory minimums but to take away the offence of personal possession of drugs and to establish a regime for safe supply.
I don't know whether you've actually seen the bill, but my question for you is an obvious one. In order to attack the opioid crisis, don't we need a lot more than what's in Bill C-5?
5:05 p.m.
Risk and Harm Reduction Educator, The DISPENSARY Community Health Center
We do. I'm actually in the National Safer Supply Community of Practice. I'm part of that as a CAPUD member.
Yes, we definitely need a lot more than what's in the bill. We need a suite of practices and policies to stop criminalizing drug users. The idea is not to decriminalize drugs; rather, it is to prevent drug users from having criminal convictions hanging over them. These are people's mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters—perhaps yours.
The media tend to show the issue through the most compelling lens, so they focus on homeless people and individuals with major issues. People like me, however, go to work every day, but they might do a heroin injection on the weekend. While it may not be newsworthy, it's part of my life. I am at risk and I know I am at risk of an overdose. All that to say, many measures are needed on top of the bill.
Thank you.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you.
I know we're getting very short of time today. I want to go back to Mr. Rolle for just a moment.
In Bill C‑5, there's an increase in discretion proposed for police and prosecutors in how they would proceed with cases of personal possession of small amounts of drugs. I'm just wondering, given the existence of systemic racism in the system and the absence of serious police reform, if you have any concerns about this increase in discretion and how it would be applied.
5:10 p.m.
Senior Legal Counsel, African Nova Scotian Justice Institute
I do think that's an area for growth. Accountability becomes important when we talk about the use of discretion, so the fact that keeping that data is optional can be seen as problematic. I think it's a step forward, but perhaps not far enough.
The corresponding question then becomes who has access to that data when we talk about the use of police referrals or warnings. I'd love to see a national framework on disaggregated race-based data collection that may be beyond the scope of this bill, but yes, that is a concern. The use of police discretion and the use of Crown discretion are two of the biggest sources of power in the justice system, and I think we do need some accountability mechanisms when we look into that.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Are you aware of any literature or studies that look at the use of that discretion currently? I ask because I haven't seen much work done on that.
5:10 p.m.
Senior Legal Counsel, African Nova Scotian Justice Institute
No. I know that locally we've been fighting to get some data standards for how we capture disaggregated race-based data. If we think about the entry points for data, these are typically with police or corrections, so I think we're missing an entire segment by not having people self-identify at the courthouse or having some accountability by having lawyers give clients the opportunity to self-identify.
With respect to the use of police discretion for warnings or referrals to restorative justice, I can't say that I've seen much research on it either.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I guess my last question for you is somewhat similar to what I've just asked the witness from The Dispensary. Do you think that Bill C‑5 is a robust enough response to the existence of systemic racism in the justice system?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Legal Counsel, African Nova Scotian Justice Institute
No, but I think it's part of the answer. I think we need more upstream responses, but we certainly support this bill as part of the answer. This problem is so complex that we're not going to address it solely at the sentencing stage, but it doesn't mean that we're relieved of our obligations at the sentencing stage when people's liberty is at risk. In that sense, I support the bill.
I do think there's a lot more work to do across the system. For example, I'd love to see a specific recognition of Black people in paragraph 718.2(e) of the Criminal Code as a type of response to further ingrain the fact that we're going to tackle overrepresentation in a really specific and targeted way, but this bill is a part of the answer.