Evidence of meeting #123 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interpretation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
That matter is under appeal right now. When a matter is under appeal, it is entirely inappropriate for the Attorney General of Canada to weigh in on it. That would transgress certain lines regarding perceptions of influencing the process—
Conservative
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
—and ensuring the sub judice rule is always complied with.
Do I feel sympathy for a woman who has lost her child? Absolutely, I do. If I could bring that child back, I would do everything in my power to do so. However, there are certain rules that confine what I can and cannot do as Minister of Justice.
With respect to your comments on ensuring the bail system is working, I would simply put it to you that, in the context of sexual violence in particular, it is not just me who has decried what's going on in the court system, particularly in Ontario. It is also journalists who have said that we don't have enough courtroom resources. We don't have enough Crown prosecutors. We don't have enough dedication to addressing sexual assault in our system. I can amend the Criminal Code, but unless it is administered on the ground by the provinces, including Ontario, all those changes are for naught. We're seeing charges being stayed or withdrawn because of delays in the process. The Province of Ontario is not meeting the Jordan principle on timelines for trials. That is rendering an injustice to those individuals. What we need to address those matters is more resources. This includes more Crowns, more police, more courtroom resources and more detention facilities for people who need to be deprived of bail.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you for that response. It was a serious question posed, and I think it warranted a serious response.
Mr. Bittle, you have five minutes, followed by Mr. Fortin and Mr. MacGregor for two and a half minutes each, if that's okay with the minister and the support staff with him, and then we will conclude.
Mr. Bittle, the floor is yours for five minutes.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Minister, I will give you some of my time, if you'd like to respond. I know none of the questions from the Conservatives were related to the legislation in front of us. Is there anything you'd specifically like to respond to, in terms of some of the questions you weren't given a chance to respond to?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I would just like to point out that some of the members opposite are actually former Crown attorneys, and it's Crown attorneys themselves, including the president of the Ontario Crown Attorneys' Association, who have lamented the lack of resources to address what's going on.
I'll just quote Donna Kellway, who's the president of the Ontario Crown Attorneys' Association. She said, “we need to be able to make sure that we have the resources to be able to get those bails properly prepared and the bail hearings taking place”. She went on to say, in respect of a $29-million proposed investment in Ontario, “It's wonderful when the police are getting resources so that they can investigate all of these crimes, make the arrests and bring us the charges. But it's completely wasted if they're able to do all of that and then we don't have the resources to prosecute them.”
What Donna Kellway is pointing out is exactly what I've been reiterating. Amendments to the Criminal Code at the federal level obviously are important, but implementation of those Criminal Code changes on the ground, in the courtrooms across this country, including in the province of Ontario, is vital.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
It's a good point. I know that some members are pretending that they haven't read the Constitution. I'm wondering if perhaps you could remind people who may be watching where the administration of justice falls, at what level of government.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
The administration of criminal justice in this country falls to the provinces under what used to be called the BNA Act, which is now called the Constitution Act, 1867. Also, importantly, the Constitution outlines, under section 11, a presumption of innocence and the right for any accused person not to be denied reasonable bail without just cause.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
I'll ask a couple of questions, if I can, on the legislation before us.
How does this bill affect future legislation?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I think it's really important, because it goes to a bit of what Monsieur Fortin was asking me about. It reduces the burden, which has been primarily borne by indigenous leaders around this country, of continually having to insist upon adding a non-derogation clause when dealing with various types of issues that we legislate in the House of Commons, and to work with drafters on what vocabulary should be used and the specific terms in the text of that. That duty will no longer attract, because we will have an overriding provision in the Interpretation Act that obviates the need for inserting a non-derogation clause in a particular statute.
Liberal
Chris Bittle Liberal St. Catharines, ON
Why was the past ad hoc approach to non-derogation clauses unsustainable?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
One, it was cumbersome. Two, it was burdensome on the indigenous leaders. Three, notwithstanding the great drafters we have in the city, unfortunately we didn't always have consistency of language. That lack of consistency has led to non-uniform interpretation, which is not useful for the predictability that we seek to aspire to in terms of running a legal system and a justice system.
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I think it's because it demonstrates quite clearly that if we roll up our sleeves and do the work, we can actually accomplish really important things.
Again, this is a bit of a technical housekeeping bill, but it is so important in terms of what it represents. It's taking those distinct groups at face value. When we work at this separately with first nations, Inuit and Métis, we are establishing all of the relationships you just mentioned. We're invigorating them. That's why you have indigenous leaders in this room right now. They are celebrating what we are about to accomplish as a Parliament.
Liberal
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
Bill S-13 empowers and ensures that aboriginal rights, as safeguarded under the Constitution and as safeguarded under treaties, are given priority and not derogated from or not diminished. It complements some of the work we've done in other respects. I'll take some ownership of this, because I worked on the Indigenous Languages Act when I was Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Heritage in our first Parliament, the 42nd Parliament.
I think in each of these instances, what you're seeing is that rights affirmations, emboldening people, passing legislation and coupling it with resources to embolden people to protect and preserve their culture and their language only bode well for that kind of cultural protection in terms of having this kind of non-derogation clause.
Liberal
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
One thousand per cent it does. It short-circuits what had been a cumbersome situation, where we had burdens placed on indigenous leadership to suggest language to us. It allows us to be much more efficient and much more nimble in terms of the passage of laws.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you very much, Mr. Bittle.
Thank you for the relevancy of all the questions that were posed. They were directly related to our study. That makes my job as chair much easier.
We will now go to Monsieur Fortin.
You have the floor for two and a half minutes, Mr. Fortin.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Minister, with all due respect, I must admit that you didn't convince me earlier. I'm obviously convinced of the importance of respecting the rights and treaties already signed and in force. It's essential that we continue to respect those treaties and indigenous rights. However, I still believe that section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, already provides for that.
You referred me to a British Columbia court ruling, but I believe it's a trial court. Has the Supreme Court ever addressed this issue? Has it already indicated that legislation such as Bill S‑13 should be passed?
Liberal
Arif Virani Liberal Parkdale—High Park, ON
I don't think that's the case. The Supreme Court has already examined section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982, but not in the context of promoting the adoption of a non-derogation clause in the Interpretation Act, which is federal.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Has any other appellate court ever indicated that a provision such as the one proposed in Bill S‑13 should be adopted?
November 25th, 2024 / 4:35 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Indigenous Rights and Relations Portfolio, Department of Justice
Thank you for your question.
I refer you to the reference to the Quebec Court of Appeal on the constitutionality of the Act respecting First Nations, Inuit and Métis children, youth and families. It wasn't a question of whether to adopt a provision such as the one proposed in Bill S‑13, but rather the importance of having an interpretive provision in the federal legislation. I just want to clarify that it stressed the importance that, as the minister explained, we must be careful to interpret the act in question in a way that is consistent with section 35.
