Evidence of meeting #125 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
What about you, Ms. Jordan-Smith? Would you like to see that requirement put forward in a legislated duty of care as quickly as possible, or would you like it to be punted to a regulator two or three years into the future at best?
Executive, As an Individual
My opinion is that something needs to happen now. I see it as responsible to have rules and regulation around the Internet.
As I mentioned in my statement, there's freedom, but then there are limits to freedom, because we need law and order. I don't see the issue with people having to verify who they are. Then, where the Criminal Code is concerned, if there's a perpetrator out there on the web, if he had to verify who he was in order to get on that site, it would be easy for police to then enforce—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you very much for that.
I'm now going to go to Madam Dhillon for up to six minutes, please.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My questions will be for Ms. Jordan-Smith.
Thank you so much for coming today and sharing your painful testimony. We heard the painful testimony of the witnesses before as well. It's not easy to hear this, so I cannot even imagine what you and your family are going through, and your child as well. My heart breaks to hear of these things happening.
I would like to say that the three core duties of this bill would be to act responsibly, to protect children, and to remove child sex abuse material and nude images shared without consent, including deepfakes.
Can you please speak to the importance of these duties? What would you like to say?
Executive, As an Individual
I think that would be adequate. I can't think of anything else necessarily to add at this stage.
I think the sharing and the way that things live on the web needs to be stopped as well, because I know for Carol and Barbie, who were in the first panel, that part of the revictimization of victims is that these things are shared and reposted. I think there needs to be some language around preventing that from happening.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Do you think that if this legislation had existed at the time your daughter was abducted it would have made a difference in her life, or you would not be facing this today?
Executive, As an Individual
I don't know to what extent we wouldn't be in the same position, but I certainly think that if tech companies were held responsible and actually moderated their sites, it would have been removed, so I think it could have been prevented by tech companies as well as by having an online safety component with a bill like Bill C-63.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
To follow up on that, we keep hearing about censorship from people who are alleging that this bill is a new form of censorship. That suggests that there is currently freedom for online platforms, and that there is control over what you see, but these platforms are the ones that have the control. It's not the users.
Do you believe users have freedom on these platforms currently? What are your thoughts? What would you like to see done differently?
Executive, As an Individual
I've heard the freedom-of-speech argument. My position on it, as I said, is that we like to think that we live in a society of free will, but within that there are frameworks of law and order in our society, and there needs to be some measure of control.
I'm an advocate for having rules in place. I don't see it as an infringement or censorship. I think with hate speech, hate crimes, racial slurs or extensive online bullying, the police are doing their best to try to deal with those things, but I certainly think it would give some teeth to police to be able to enforce something, and it would set the ground rules for Canada on how we operate on the web, so it would be a cultural shift.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Again, I have a follow-up question to that comment. I was actually going to ask you about this. The harms online also include those that induce a child to harm themselves or subject them to bullying.
Why do you think it's important to include these as well in the bill?
Executive, As an Individual
I think it's important because the result is that children are dying, and they're committing suicide through online bullying, or exploitation, or sextortion, and it's happening at an increasing rate. C3P put out a report that Snapchat and Instagram have the highest rates of predatory behaviour, and I know children on those platforms. People create content, thinking it's innocent, and I think, oh, that's your child dancing at the age of 12—how cute. However, I think there's a predator watching that.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
I don't know if you've been watching the justice committee over the last few weeks, getting to this bill. Why is it urgent? Filibusters have taken place. You talk about revictimization. The testimony of victims was read over and over again, over hours and hours, rather than addressing the bill.
Why is it urgent to pass this bill, in your opinion? What are we risking by delaying the passage of this bill further and further?
Executive, As an Individual
For me, I think we're behind the eight ball. I mentioned that the U.K. and Australia have more progressive legislation. So does the EU. I'm not suggesting that those are necessarily perfect pieces of legislation, but there has to be something in place, and something is better than nothing.
I think it would give rules for how people operate on the web, especially even people who aren't doing harmful behaviour. However, when I think about even grown women I know who have received unsolicited nude...from grown men, or catfishing and things like that, there are victims of all of these things, and right now it is the Wild West. I think there needs to be something in place that gives people the legal framework for how to operate within this space.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
We keep hearing mention of a regulator over and over again in these questions. I would like to ask you this: How do you feel knowing that, without a regulator, victims would have to sue social media platforms to enforce the law? What would you like to say about that?
Executive, As an Individual
I would say that there should be, again, more in place. We are victims, and we are in the middle of a lawsuit with the provider of a platform.
December 5th, 2024 / 12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you very much.
Mr. Fortin, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Jordan‑Smith, for being with us today. Your story is very troubling, like those from Ms. Todd and Ms. Lavers, whom we heard before you. Obviously, we will keep your experiences in mind all throughout our work on this important issue.
Bill C‑63deals with the issue of online hate, as well as bullying and protecting images, among other things. The minister announced he would be dividing the bill. We can therefore hope to look more quickly into the issue of bullying and use of social media, specifically by passing the new Online Harms Act. That’s good news for us.
For your part, did anyone speak to you about the idea of dividing Bill C‑63 in order to work more quickly on the Online Harms Act? If so, what did you think?
Executive, As an Individual
I'm sorry. The interpretation of that question didn't come through. Is there somebody who can pose that question in English?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Have you...?
As the chair, I'll ask, but then I'll have to turn it over to someone else who has more capabilities.
Do you have—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
On the bottom, do you have it turned to the language of your choice? In this case, I guess it's “English”?
