Evidence of meeting #125 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was children.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Are they ringing because the vote is in 10 minutes, or are they ringing...?
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
I'm asking for unanimous consent. I think everybody is agreeing that we will continue to go on with this, but we have to stop five minutes before the vote.
Thank you. Please continue.
I'm sorry, Ms. Todd. It was your turn to respond.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Thank you.
Ms. Todd, you just asked me if I could show you that approach, and I can.
There's a bill in front of Parliament right now, called Bill C-412. It outlines a specific duty of care for online operators that says exactly what they have to do in this. It also specifies the regulatory body. If it was passed today, it could be enacted today, and we could have immediate impacts.
That's my concern with Bill C-63. It takes this responsibility and puts it into a regulator that hasn't been built. It also gives online platforms the ability to wiggle out of this two, three or four years in the future. My concern is with regard to how many more kids are going to experience this and have detrimental impacts.
Therefore, I would direct your attention to Bill C-412. However, with the time I have left, I'd like to just ask some questions on whether you think some high-level things that are in there would be a good approach. First of all is the immediate updating of Canada's non-consensual distribution of intimate image laws to include images created by artificial intelligence, otherwise known as deep nudes.
Do you think we need to do that today, Ms. Todd?
Conservative
Founder and Mother, Amanda Todd Legacy Society
It was my understanding that there was embedded, in Bill C-63, something about AI, but—
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
It doesn't. It punts it to a regulator, and it doesn't update the Criminal Code.
Bill C-412 does.
Do you also think that the duty of care, which is in Bill C-412 and includes things like other witnesses said about being able to discern who is a minor and having specific actions on what online operators have to do to prevent the instances, is something we should be looking at today?
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Just to be clear, your position is that we should not be necessarily punting this to a regulator and having action two to three years in the future, but that we should be looking for action today through a prescribed duty of care.
Founder and Mother, Amanda Todd Legacy Society
As I said, we realize that creating a digital safety commission in Canada takes a while. My dream would be that, in the meantime, while this is built, there would be something in place that could regulate also.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you, Ms. Todd.
Let me now move...and I'm going to try to be fair. If I do the math, I can go six minutes, six minutes and six minutes, and that will give me enough time, then, to stop before the bells.
Mr. Maloney, you have up to six minutes.
Thank you.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank you and the members around the table for allowing us to do this study, particularly those who voted in favour of proceeding with it.
As well, I want to thank the witnesses for their powerful and important presentations today.
I just want to highlight, so that everybody knows, and I think everybody is aware, that the minister announced yesterday that we intend to split Bill C-63 into two parts, with the digital safety and child protection measures separated from the measures that focus on hate. I'd like to get on record that we've agreed to start with a prestudy of three meetings, but I believe that we should continue with three to six meetings on part 1 of the bill. This means a focus on the online harms act and the amendments to the mandatory reporting act. Then we can proceed with a second study, on the balance of the bill, at a later date.
I do have questions for the witnesses. I just want to emphasize our gratitude to all of you for being here, because we know it is incredibly difficult to share your stories in this fashion or in any other fashion. You have our gratitude and respect.
Child sexual abuse in Canada is currently illegal. Law enforcement can and should deal with horrible content, as Ms. Rempel was saying. However, as you said, Ms. Lavers, we need to depoliticize this, and the Criminal Code amendments alone are not enough.
What Bill C-63 would do.... I'll just be clear: A number of the issues that Ms. Rempel Garner was referring to are included in Bill C-63, so I think people need to understand that.
My question to all of you is this: If we were to proceed with just the Criminal Code measures alone, without the digital safety framework, would that be enough to address the problems we're talking about today, in your opinion? I put the question to all of you.
Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Can I jump in on that one, please?
It is really important that we underscore this point: While criminal law is absolutely essential, it is not enough when we're dealing with the upload of material and content online. What we know is that, of course, we need to be able to convict and charge people, to move down that process, but by the time an image gets uploaded, it can be distributed to multiple platforms at a rate that is just unmanageable. The fact that we have some of the strongest legislation in the world tied to even how we define child sexual abuse material and are still issuing between 10,000 and 20,000 notices per day really shows that gap. While, certainly, as mentioned, those things are important, we know that when we're dealing with online content and harmful content, we cannot rely exclusively on criminal law.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Do any of the other witnesses want to comment on that before I move on?
No. Okay.
Ms. McDonald, I'll go back to you then.
The 10,000 to 20,000 number that you mentioned a couple of times is quite stark. Without the takedown provisions that are part of Bill C-63.... Let me put it another way. With the takedown provisions that are included in Bill C-63, how would the outcomes be different? What would the time frame difference look like, in your opinion, based on the companies having free reign to make the decision now, versus the provisions of Bill C-63?
Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
I would say a few things there.
First off, I know this will sound odd, but we feel that the 24-hour timeline is still too long. We know this because we can see companies removing material within minutes.
The fact of the matter is that right now there is no accountability; there is no oversight, so we are allowing companies to decide whether or not they are going to agree, whether they want to comply, whether they're going to ignore. There's no accountability. Obviously, we need regulation. Obviously, we need an accountability structure. There need to be consequences for these companies.
I will also note the level of recidivism that we see. By that I mean that when we have issued a notice to a company about a particular image, we'll see that same image reappear on that same platform. There's absolutely no excuse for that. There is no incentive, and there's no accountability. This is why they do what they want.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
I'm curious. If there are 10,000 to 20,000 notices, what's the response rate? What percentage of the notices you send actually generate a response, and how many of those responses generate a response that you're satisfied with?
Executive Director, Canadian Centre for Child Protection
Actually, over the course of the few years we've been doing this—and I guess it's a little bit because of the reputation of the organization and what we do—we're seeing about 75% of the material coming down within two days. I think that's roughly correct. However, we're also seeing other providers and bad actors that, in fact, just ignore our notices. They just decide that they're not going to respond.
Again, this is where we need to see governments around the world uniting and calling to account these digital titans that have been allowed to do what they want without any consequence.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
I believe my time is nearly up, so I'll just say thank you again to you and to all the other witnesses for being here today.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lena Metlege Diab
Thank you, MP Maloney.
Mr. Fortin, I give you the floor for six minutes.
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I thank all the witnesses for being here today.
Ms. Todd and Ms. Lavers, your testimony is troubling. Even if we know about it, we don’t realize the effect this type of situation can have; we don’t realize the impact social media now has on our children. I consider it our duty as legislators to look into the issue and find the most appropriate solutions.
I know it is difficult for you to tell these stories. I don’t know how to describe it all, but it is the saddest of tragedies. Thank you for having the courage to testify before the committee.
That said, as her speaking time was up, I believe Ms. Todd was unable to finish her statement.
Ms. Todd, I would like to give you a minute or two to finish your testimony, if you please.
