Justice Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

Evidence of meeting #127 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was platforms.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Pre-Study on Bill C-63

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Frances Haugen Advocate, Social Platforms Transparency and Accountability, As an Individual

Marni Panas Canadian Certified Inclusion Professional, As an Individual

Jocelyn Monsma Selby Chair, Clinical Therapist and Forensic Evaluator, Connecting to Protect

Andrew Clement Professor Emeritus, Faculty of Information, University of Toronto, As an Individual

Guillaume Rousseau Full Professor and Director, Graduate Applied State Law and Policy Programs, Université de Sherbrooke, As an Individual

Joanna Baron Executive Director, Canadian Constitution Foundation

12:45 p.m.

Prof. Andrew Clement

Thank you very much for that question.

“Artificial intelligence” is not a very well-defined term. It's used very broadly, and it has multiple meanings, but we can think of it as a set of algorithmic techniques. It's part of algorithmic practices on the part of these companies. I prefer to use the term “algorithmic intensification”, rather than “intelligence”, because these algorithms do not comprehend or understand content in the way humans do, so they're very limited in their ability to moderate content, particularly if it's going to be taken down.

AI is being used by the platforms particularly in order to keep people on their site and to keep the content sort of flowing and people clicking and so on, and that they can be quite good at because they can keep refining it. It's a statistical process. Also, as we've heard, most recently with generative AI, it's being used to create deepfakes, which can be deeply misleading. I think it's very important that when that is being done, it's clearly understood by the users that this is not a real, authentic image. That doesn't address all of the problems—like these AI friends that become seductive in various ways—but it's a start.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you.

In the course of the conversation around Bill C-63, my Conservative colleagues have mentioned one of their own bills, Bill C-412. I want to mention another private member's bill, brought in by my colleague MP Peter Julian, Bill C-292, the online algorithm transparency act.

I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit about the features in that legislation and maybe how Bill C-63 might not be hitting the mark of where we need to be in this space.

12:45 p.m.

Prof. Andrew Clement

I did look at Bill C-292. In part, it inspired my recommendations regarding algorithmic transparency, because that is the main feature of that bill.

However, I think that what I'm proposing here around the prospective amendments to define algorithmic transparency will go beyond what your colleague has proposed in Bill C-292, in that his definition refers only to personal information. There's a lot more information that goes into the algorithmic practices. I think it's very important that we understand all of the aspects of the way in which online operators curate information.

I think it's a good start. I think Bill C-63 can go further. It needs an algorithmic transparency amendment.

12:45 p.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you very much.

Ms. Baron, I'll turn to you for my last question.

In your opening remarks, you were talking about the importance of protecting freedom of expression, and you said this is the new public square. One key difference, though, is that unlike the physical town square, the digital town square is not a passive bystander. We know that on platforms, those algorithms can play a role in amplifying some content while suppressing other content. It can have a very real effect of pushing some people into some pretty dark corners.

We just heard from a witness in the previous panel, a member of the LGBTQ community, who said that her ability to freely express herself with the status quo is being hampered. How would you like to tackle that? We're trying to figure out a way forward here. How do we protect her ability to freely express herself, because the status quo is greatly impugning her right?