Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sentence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Desrosiers  Full Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual
Anie Samson  Municipal Affairs Strategic Advisor and Political Analyst, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, As an Individual
David Henry  Executive Director, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec
Raymond Cotonnec  Executive Director, C.R.C. Curé-Labelle Inc.
Elspeth Kaiser-Derrick  PhD Candidate, As an Individual
John Maki  Director, Task Force on Long Sentences, Council on Criminal Justice
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Jean-François Pagé

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

I want to stay for the moment with Dr. Desrosiers on the question of restoring judicial discretion.

We've heard this suggestion from many people, and I guess we have a technical problem as legislators, in that we're dealing in this committee with a bill as drafted and so it's difficult for some of us to see how we can amend this bill to restore that judicial discretion.

I wonder if you have any suggestions, as a professor who is dealing with this, on how we might go about that, because this bill doesn't deal with all mandatory minimums but only with a select number of them.

4:10 p.m.

Full Professor, Faculty of Law, Université Laval, As an Individual

Dr. Julie Desrosiers

I think you can ask for the bill to be reconsidered and to add items, in any event.

For now, there are two aspects that need to be considered.

First, there has to be a determination of what can be done concerning the sentences targeted in this bill. For some offences, the bill does not target all the minimum sentences provided for the same offence. For example, for discharging a firearm, various minimum sentences are provided, and the bill targets only discharging a firearm in cases other than prohibited firearm cases. Not all minimum sentences are targeted in the bill.

In this first discussion of the bill, you are already going to have discussions among parliamentarians, and I don't know whether you all agree on the objective of abolishing all these mandatory minimum sentences. One thing for sure is that it is always possible to amend the existing bill and say that the minimum sentence provided in clause 2 is applicable except in exceptional circumstances. That is the wording used in other countries. The key words "except in exceptional circumstances" give discretion back to judges who have to take exceptional situations into account. The judge can then decide not to apply the minimum sentence.

It would also be possible to add a general provision in the part dealing with sentences, without reiterating all the minimum sentences prescribed by the Code. The bill is being examined clause by clause, but, as my colleague Mr. Henry and numerous other people did, I would like to make a proposal. I am not bringing a completely innovative idea to the table. A number of people have already thought about this question. There is an entire part on sentencing that starts at section 718 in the Criminal Code. It is entirely possible to add a general provision stating that whenever the Code prescribes a minimum sentence, the judge can make an exception to it in exceptional circumstances.

It would therefore be wise to incorporate a general provision of that nature into the bill, and this would solve all aspects of the problem. General provisions are welcome in the Criminal Code, which resembles a kind of patchwork and has no general direction. If a message could be sent to all judges to say that when there is a minimum sentence, they may make an exception to it in exceptional circumstances, that would be excellent.

4:15 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Dr. Desrosiers.

I'd like to turn to Mr. Henry and the association for rehabilitation in Quebec.

Mr. Cotonnec made a reference to the effect of criminal records on the ability for people to be rehabilitated and reattached to society. Again, it's something that's not in the bill, but it's something that we will perhaps be able to add to the bill.

Mr. Henry, could you talk about the impact of criminal records for personal possession of drugs and the rehabilitation process?

4:15 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

David Henry

On the question of criminal records, there is currently no gradation in the Criminal Records Act. No matter the offence committed, whether it be murder, sexual assault, mischief, or theft under $5,000, the person will have a criminal record once they are convicted and as long as they have not been pardoned. Individuals who have committed any of these offences will therefore suffer the same consequences, since there are no different types of criminal record.

I don't know whether, as parliamentarians, you know that over 4.2 million Canadians have a criminal record. No matter the circumstances, a criminal record is never erased before it is 125 years old. It's possible to obtain what's called a criminal record suspension, but, as the term clearly says, the criminal record is suspended and it is never erased before it is 125 years old, regardless of the seriousness of the offence that was committed.

The problem in applying the Criminal Records Act at present is that criminal records discriminate against people long after they have finished serving their sentence. That has consequences for them in things like job searches, since more and more employers are doing searches on their potential future employees' criminal records in court dockets and registries.

An employer can check someone's criminal record without necessarily having their consent. All that is needed, to get that information, is the person's surname and date of birth. A lot of people make their date of birth public, for instance on Facebook. I can do checks on anyone, once I have their date of birth and surname, using computerized dockets and court registries. A lot of companies use those services to discriminate against hiring people with a criminal record, without actually going and seeing the details of the offence, when it was committed, and so on.

Having a criminal record has a lot of other consequences, such as...

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Henry. You're out of time.

Next we have a five-minute round, beginning with Mr. Brock.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start by asking the same question that my colleague Rob Moore asked Ms. Samson.

Ms. Samson, the question again, to refresh your memory, was this: Can you share with the committee what message Bill C-5 sends to communities who are grieving due to gun violence?

4:15 p.m.

Municipal Affairs Strategic Advisor and Political Analyst, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, As an Individual

Anie Samson

The message being sent at present is that because certain mandatory minimum sentences have been abolished, a criminal can commit a crime and get a reduced sentence, while the victim may be traumatized for the rest of their life. Their life might even be completely disrupted. But we're going to look after rehabilitating the person who caused the victim and their family harm, and the problem will seem to be solved.

On the other hand, the person who was assaulted and injured, as the case may be, will have to live with that trauma all their life. That situation can change the course of their life and can even ruin it. They may become depressed, drop out of school, and so on. A person who had a great future in front of them will no longer be able to count on that, because they have been a victim of rape or assault. A lot of things will have happened, but the criminal may be liable to a sentence of one year in prison, maybe even home imprisonment. The victim will feel imprisoned all their life.

I wanted to explain this view of crime, which has negative, long-term effects on victims. These are the effects we don't see and we don't hear about.

Following all the gunfire that went on in Montreal, we created a group called Communauté de citoyens en action contre les criminels violents. We started the group because we said to ourselves that we could provide solutions. We wrote letters to the government in which we proposed solutions and amendments that could be made to the rules at the provincial, federal and municipal levels.

We got a lot of calls from parents of victims who had nowhere to go to be heard and be respected. We met two parents, on three occasions, who had lost their sons tragically. Their children, who had absolutely nothing to do with the facts, were killed by gunfire for some obscure reason. The mother of one of the victims, who is a physician, fell into a serious depression. The father lost his job and his twin daughters dropped out of school. This tragic incident completely destroyed that family, who are living in a state of deep mourning and have been given no answers. When the criminal, an adult who was in possession of an illegal firearm, is charged, he will probably get a sentence if the law is passed. But that will never relieve the distress of this family, who have suffered such an ordeal.

We have seen a number of similar cases and we get numerous emails about this. We thought this was a good way to try to help people, but it became virtually a full-time job. We also get calls from teachers who ask us to come and tell the children what to do in these circumstances and help them recognize the signs of violence. We are really trying to find ways of relieving the pain these parents feel.

There may be good reasons for a project like that, there may be exceptional cases, there may be things to improve, but it's going to take some teaching to persuade these victims to get help, because they feel they have been abandoned by the system. That is what causes problems for these people.

Another of our colleagues will be coming to testify before you next week, on Friday, I think. He will also tell you about facts associated with these phenomena. The group was created by members of the police and myself. The police on the ground enforce the law, and I'm on the other side to try to help our young people cope.

As you said, Ms. Desrosiers, there are certainly measures that could be taken to help young people cope. That is why I said just now that enforcement and prevention go hand in hand. When we put significant prevention measures in place and agree to invest the necessary funds to find the source of the problem and solve it, we will be enabling young people to feel safe and not afraid to go to school, combating dropping out, and preventing them from making bad choices, by offering them opportunities. We may even succeed in creating a better society that way, or at least fewer crimes will be committed.

I hope I have answered your question.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Brock and Ms. Samson.

Next we will go to Madam Shanahan for five minutes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being with us today.

We have had some really very interesting discussions about a problem that concerns us all.

Mr. Henry and Mr. Cotonnec, Ms. Desrosiers and Ms. Samson have told us about some terrible situations.

Can you give us your comments in this regard?

4:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

David Henry

I think Professor Desrosiers summarized my opinion on mandatory minimum sentences really very well. But I would like to come back to what Ms. Samson said, if I may. I have the impression that the rights of victims of crime and the rights of people in prison are being systematically juxtaposed, and some things being getting mixed up. Personally, I would really like to know how mandatory minimum sentences are going to bring comfort to victims of crime.

Working in rehabilitation doesn't mean that we aren't sensitive to victims; the opposite is true. I think we have to stop seeing things in terms of that juxtaposition. Like the organizations that belong to the Association, I try to rehabilitate offenders. That doesn't mean that we are working against victims; the opposite is true. We work in restorative justice services, for example, and these are growing and specifically bring together the people who committed an assault and the victims, to resolve the conflict.

Victims need support services, but people who have committed an assault also need support services so they don't reoffend. Mandatory minimum sentences don't help anybody, in reality. They don't help victims, given that they have already been assaulted. I don't see how imposing a minimum sentence of a year or three months, whatever, can give the victim any comfort and help them overcome what they have experienced.

For a person who has committed an assault, as Professor Desrosiers says, the reality is complex. Exceptional circumstances mean that mandatory minimum sentences don't always apply. The judge's discretion is important. Abolishing mandatory minimum sentences doesn't mean that sentences will be lighter. That has to be clear in your minds. The judge will make an appropriate decision, and in some circumstances it will be lighter than what the mandatory minimum sentence provided. In exceptional circumstances, it may be lighter.

In any event, it isn't a matter of making the system less strict. I simply wanted to clarify that point, because, to my mind, these are two completely different things.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC

Thank you very much.

I would now like to address Mr. Cotonnec.

Mr. Cotonnec, can you tell us about the harms that mandatory minimum sentences cause to individuals, in particularly people dealing with drug addiction, and to families and communities?

I would like to know more about the negative effects that mandatory minimum sentences have on families, and more specifically on the children of people who are incarcerated.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, C.R.C. Curé-Labelle Inc.

Raymond Cotonnec

In a halfway house, our clients have already served part of their sentence in prison, be it a sixth or a third, for example. They are often disconnected from their children's everyday lives when they return to their community, given that it is often their wife who has looked after them for all that time, for months, sometimes even years.

Resuming their place in parental authority, but also in the family home, is very difficult. The children feel like there is a stranger in their home. It may also be the case, initially, that the father has lost all credibility in the eyes of his own children. That is very difficult to go through.

Mr. Henry said, in a way, and I agree with him, that in cases of relatively less serious crimes, whether or not there are mandatory minimum sentences, we have to trust judges. Sentences will certainly be harsh in situations where they should be. In my opinion, we must not think that if there are no mandatory minimum sentences, lenient sentences are going to be imposed. That will not be the case at all.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Cotonnec. Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.

Now we'll go for two quick rounds of two and a half minutes each. The first is with Monsieur Fortin.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cotonnec, as I understand it, you work in the rehabilitation field with people who have already done time in a penitentiary, who are living at your facility. I would like to discuss the question of recidivism with you.

In the field of rehabilitation, how can the success rate, as compared with the recidivism rate, be determined?

In addition, don't you sometimes get the impression that among your clientele, if I can use that term, not everyone realizes the seriousness of their wrongdoing? Or do you rather get the impression that after finishing the process, they have understood and they won't be coming back?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, C.R.C. Curé-Labelle Inc.

Raymond Cotonnec

First, I would like to reassure some people about our mission, which I believe in, obviously. Everyone thinks that the mission of a halfway house is reintegration into the community. Yes, that is part of it, but beyond that, our priority is to protect society.

Recidivism is virtually nil while offenders stay with us. In the 27 and a half years I have been working at the halfway house where I am the director, I have not seen anyone reoffend. What I do occasionally see are breaches of conditions, but they are victimless. For example, someone may use alcohol one night and get caught. There will be internal consequences and a risk of being returned to prison, but there is no recidivism.

With respect to recidivism after their time there, there are statistics on that. Ms. Desrosiers may have more than I do. Since 2006, we have kept statistics on the success rate for offenders who stay with us, which is between 87 per cent and 94 per cent. That means that out of a group of 100 residents, between 87 and 94 of them will complete their stay with a job and accommodation and will have started or completed therapy, depending on their situation.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you.

I would like to ask another question, briefly.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I'm sorry, but your speaking time is up.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Right.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.

Next we go to Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

4:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to continue talking about the idea of rehabilitation. I'll pose this question to either Mr. Henry or Mr. Cotonnec.

If we didn't pass this bill, most of the mandatory minimums we're talking about eliminating would remain in place for one or two years. If people are being sent to institutions for less than two years, what access do they actually have to rehabilitation in those cases?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

David Henry

Sentences of less than two years are managed by the provincial correctional system. In Quebec, it's Quebec's correctional services that handle people who are sentenced to less than two years. The system operates a bit like the federal system, that is, there are day passes in preparation for parole, or PSPLCs.

To summarize, in very rare cases, it is possible to get out after one sixth of the sentence. The sentence continues, but the person gets out of prison after serving one sixth of their sentence. However, that is very rare, it is seldom applied, and it happens by decision of the CQLC, the Commission des libérations conditionnelles du Québec. Otherwise, people incarcerated for less than two years are eligible for parole at one third of their sentence. Again, the decision as to whether to grant the person parole is made by the members of the Commission des libérations conditionnelles du Québec based on the person's profile, their potential for social reintegration, and their release plan. Often, these are the people who are also going to be in a halfway house and will be monitored for the other two thirds of their sentence in the community.

There are very clear figures about this. As well, studies have shown that people who are released on parole and are supervised until the very end of their sentence reoffend less than people who get out at the equivalent of two thirds of their sentence, the point at which release is virtually mandatory at the provincial level. A person who gets out after serving the equivalent of two thirds of their sentence, for sentences of two years or less, will be released without any form of support or supervision. Those individuals reoffend more than people who get out earlier but are supervised.

In my opinion, rehabilitation involves a number of supervisory and support services and programs offered to people when they return to the community.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, Association des services de réhabilitation sociale du Québec

David Henry

Certainly programs can be offered in prison, but, as Professor Desrosiers did a good job of explaining, sentences are very short on the provincial side, 60 days on average.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Henry. Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

That concludes our first panel. These panellists are dismissed.

I'm going to suspend for a minute to do some quick sound checks for the next panellists.

You're more than welcome, by the way, to stay on and listen, but in the interim we'll get our new panellists set up. We'll resume with the second panel.

I will remind the second panel that you'll have five minutes each to make your opening statements. Please be mindful of your time. If you miss anything, you can get it out in your responses to the questions when they're asked to you.

Our first panellist is Elspeth Kaiser-Derrick, Ph.D. candidate. You have five minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Elspeth Kaiser-Derrick PhD Candidate, As an Individual

Good afternoon.

First, thank you so much for inviting me to appear before this committee. I feel very honoured and grateful to be here with you.

At the second reading stage, Bill C-5 is framed in relation to the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in the system, alongside Black people and those from other marginalized communities. I will focus specifically on this issue of indigenous overrepresentation.

For some context, my research draws upon feminist theories to explore how the criminal justice system interprets and characterizes information about women processed through it, and particularly indigenous women.

In my book, I reviewed 175 decisions sentencing indigenous women, spanning from 1999 to 2015, beginning when the Supreme Court of Canada issued R. v. Gladue, which interpreted Criminal Code section 718.2(e) and set out a different methodology for the sentencing of indigenous peoples.

That court affirmed and clarified this in R. v. Ipeelee in 2012. In Gladue, the Supreme Court finds that indigenous peoples are overrepresented throughout the system, cites systemic discrimination and declares that this is a crisis. The court determined section 718.2(e) represents a direction by Parliament to the judiciary to strive to remedy this situation. The court outlines that judges are required on a mandatory basis by section 718.2(e) to consider all options other than imprisonment.

The Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the TRC, in its call to action number 30, directs all levels of government to commit to eliminating the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in custody within what remains now as the next three years. In its call for justice 5.21, the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls calls upon the federal government to fully implement this and other recommendations by the TRC and other bodies pertaining to the overrepresentation of indigenous women in the system.

In both Gladue and Ipeelee, the Supreme Court of Canada acknowledges the limits of the sentencing process to remedy the injustice of indigenous overrepresentation in the system. Each decision finds a measure of optimism.

In Gladue, that optimism rests in that judges determine most directly whether an indigenous person goes to prison. In Ipeelee, there is some residual optimism in its clarification of how judges should apply section 718.2(e). However, Gladue was decided over 20 years ago, and Ipeelee was decided a decade ago. In the most recent annual report, from 2020-2021, the Office of the Correctional Investigator indicates that the population of indigenous women who are federally sentenced has increased by 73.8% over 30 years, representing 43% of all federally sentenced women. I also note that because CSOs, conditional sentence orders, are only available for provincial sentences of under two years, that particular element of Bill C-5 will not apply to indigenous overrepresentation at the federal level.

In my book, I explore the sentencing of indigenous women through the lens of a feminist theory called the victimization-criminalization continuum. This theory provides a way to understand women’s trajectories into the criminal justice system as connected to their experiences of victimization and constrained options arising from that context. I use this framework broadly, including to encompass colonial harms within the concept of victimization.

Among many other cases, my research includes cases in which indigenous women’s criminalization or incarceration led to the apprehension of their children by the child welfare system, and also the inverse situation, in which indigenous women did not contact police or medical authorities when necessary because they feared that their children would be apprehended, and then became criminalized as a result. I believe that these and related junctures where colonial systems and institutions intersect contribute to the entrenchment of indigenous overrepresentation in the criminal justice system.

I also note that approximately 80% of the women in my research are mothers, and indigenous children and youth remain highly overrepresented in child welfare systems. I offer these examples of some indigenous women’s criminalization because any legislative amendments to mandatory minimums and CSOs that are positioned to respond to systemic overrepresentation must provide judges with flexibility to account for these and other colonial complexities.

Over 30 years ago, the aboriginal justice inquiry of Manitoba examined indigenous over-incarceration in that province, recommending that trial judges must be more creative and flexible in sentencing and that appellate courts must encourage this. The Supreme Court of Canada in Ipeelee also points to the need for innovative sentencing. However, greater judicial discretion is necessary to fulfill this need, to craft just sentences generally, and specifically per section 718.2(e). In my research, some judges explicitly stated that they could not order the community sentences that would otherwise be fit due to legislative restrictions, and other judges made comments signalling a need and desire for more creative sentencing reasoning and practices for the indigenous women before them.

In my work, I argued for an expansion of the availability of CSOs and suggested a legislative way forward through this through judicial discretion, such as to decline to impose mandatory minimum sentences when appropriate. Indeed, the TRC's call to action number 32 directs this.

I have a bit left, but I've run out of time.