Evidence of meeting #15 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
We used to have a clinic. UBC had an indigenous legal clinic in the skids down in Vancouver. It was accessible for a lot of people. We often had clients come in asking us to help them fill out pardon papers and those kinds of things.
It's just kind of manoeuvring around the system and trying to find the resources. There's not a lot, at least in B.C.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
Next in our first round of five minutes, we'll have Mr. Cooper.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for your testimony.
My questions are for Mr. Wall.
Mr. Wall, you have extensive experience in law enforcement. In your testimony and your answers to questions posed by Monsieur Fortin and Mr. Moore, the questions were focused on mandatory jail time and more specifically with regard to the firearms and drug offences.
There's another component of Bill C-5 and that is the significant expansion of conditional sentencing. The bill, according to the Liberals, is just a matter of seeing that supposedly non-violent criminals can serve time at home instead of behind bars. When one looks at some of the offences that would now be eligible for house arrest, they include prison breach, criminal harassment, sexual assault, kidnapping, trafficking in persons for material benefit, abduction of a person under the age of 14, theft over $5,000, breaking and entering a place other than a dwelling-house, being unlawfully in a dwelling-house, arson for a fraudulent purpose, assault causing bodily harm or with a weapon, and impaired driving causing death, among other serious offences.
What is your opinion of the appropriateness of expanding conditional sentencing for these offences?
Supervisor (Retired), Service de police de la Ville de Montréal (SPVM), As an Individual
Care must be taken to not lump everyone together. For some types of crime against property, such as break and enter, a scale could be established, giving a conditional sentence for a first or second offence. This could be realistic or possible if we want to give people a chance.
Now, in my 29 years as a police officer, I've met police officers, victims, members of the general public and the silent majority, and no one understands why criminals who commit crimes against the person would be given conditional sentences. A well-informed public cannot be in favour of that because we're talking about sexual assault, assault, threats, blows and assault with a weapon. These criminals who commit violence against women, children and men cannot take priority. Priority must be given to their victims, the people who are being hit and threatened. These people should be given priority and kept safe. Criminals should therefore not be allowed to return to the community without supervision.
The reality is that, beyond the principles, there is no supervision during parole or release. Parole officers can be required to handle 250 people. There is no real supervision, and the same is true for conditional sentences. Criminals find these measures lax, and they laugh at them and take advantage of them.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Edmonton, AB
Thank you for that.
I think you raise a very important point about the lack of supervision. The director of the London Abused Women's Centre, who appeared before our committee last week, said that as a result of the expansion of conditional sentencing specifically as it pertains to sexual assault, vulnerable women are going to be put at risk.
Would you agree?
Supervisor (Retired), Service de police de la Ville de Montréal (SPVM), As an Individual
Absolutely.
I remember a particular case about five years ago. A few weeks after a man was arrested for sexual assault, the victim found herself face to face with the suspect in the same neighbourhood.
Is it normal in our society, with a goal of reintegration, to allow suspects to quickly return to society and to not protect—but rather stigmatize—victims? That's not desirable or normal in a society like Canada. We should always give priority to the rights and freedoms of the victims over those of the criminals.
We all believe in the principle of reintegration, and it works in some cases. However, if we look at the scope of crimes against property and crimes against the person, Canada clearly needs to crack down on people who physically attack others or commit sexual assault. They must suffer strict consequences based on the seriousness of their actions. That is what our citizens group is recommending.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Wall, and Mr. Cooper.
Next is Ms. Shanahan for five minutes.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I, too, want to thank our witnesses for appearing before us today, especially Madam Guerin Skalusat.
I was very touched by your story. Thank you for sharing that with us. I'm very sorry for the losses you suffered. Nonetheless, in your story there is empowerment that happens with time. So congratulations on being here before us today to share your expertise and ideas with us about how we tackle this very difficult problem of anti-social criminal activity within a community. You alluded to that in an earlier answer, noting that for community members who pose a danger to other community members, there need to be some boundaries around that.
I'd like to get your ideas. I'm neither a regular member of this committee nor a lawyer, but I would like to hear your expertise on that. Do you have confidence in judges being able to do the kind of sentencing that would allow for someone who needs to be in prison to actually be imprisoned for a certain length of time, or for someone to serve out their time in a community setting?
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
I would say that, yes, I have confidence in the judges. I think the implementation of Gladue went pretty well. I think it's something that our community members and those who are facing the criminal justice system are very familiar with. We have lots of resources to support that process. Yes, with that same level of support, I think it would be good.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Thank you, because I think that's what we're trying to say here. It's not that there wouldn't be any sentencing going on or that people would get off scot-free; it's trying to address the person in front of the judge.
You talk about your work in training youth with the BladeRunners program. I would like to hear more about that program. In your ideal world, what would you like to see happen in order to do the kind of preventative program work that would reduce gang violence, for example, in a community?
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
That's a tough one.
On the gang issue and what could be done, I think something has to be done at the community level. I think there has to be buy-in of the political leadership, of our indigenous leadership—and I think at some level, there is. It's a challenge, no doubt, because some of these gang members are our family members. Right? It's hard....
Sorry, what was the first part of your question?
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
What would your vision be? You've been involved with the BladeRunners program.
And by the way, talking about communities and gang members being a part of the family, all of our communities, all of us from every heritage background, have had our own problems. I'm Irish. I have seen a bit in my time. But I like your approach.
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
This is kind of a new phenomenon on Indian reserves. Well, at least it is in mine, just from seeing the growth of it over the last maybe 10 years.
Yes, it's definitely an issue that needs to be dealt with. There are firearms involved. There are guys kidnapping each other. Some of the issues that you're addressing in this bill would target some of those individuals.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
Would you have any ideas around the police forces on reserve? I live near the reserve of Kahnawake. The peacekeepers, from what I have seen, do an excellent job, but there could always be more reinforcement. What do you think?
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
You know, I sat at a lot of treaty negotiation tables and there was a lot of discussion about whether to take over some of these areas of jurisdiction. It would take a lot of political will and a lot of resources to do it, for the communities to have what they need to support the work, but I think it could be doe.
Liberal
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
I would honestly recommend using the.... I shouldn't, but because of the work I've done—I've worked with self-governing communities—I just think they have momentum to build new processes and systems and to address their issues. They often have the revenue as well. I think if you wanted to pilot them or something, it might be through some of those communities that really have their political house in order, as I always say, and have self-government.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Ms. Shanahan.
Next we have two two-and-a-half-minute rounds, beginning with Monsieur Fortin.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have another question for Mr. Wall.
Mr. Wall, I understand your position on mandatory minimum sentences. I would now like to hear from you on the other aspect of Bill C‑5, diversion.
I imagine that you read the bill before appearing today. You understand that part of the bill is about diversion, or allowing the police to make decisions in some cases. For example, should individuals be brought before justice or should alternatives instead be considered to help them more?
Finally, what the bill proposes is to deal with drug addiction problems as health issues rather than criminal issues. Thus, instead of initiating a process that would send someone to prison, the system seeks to treat or heal their addiction. Obviously, we're talking not about trafficking here, but about personal use.
What do you think about that? In your opinion, are the police being given too much power?
Should a judge or prosecutor be the one to make those decisions, or in your opinion, are the police able to make that assessment about whether or not to use diversion?
Supervisor (Retired), Service de police de la Ville de Montréal (SPVM), As an Individual
What I can say about that is that the principles of diversion have existed for many years in the Young Offenders Act, so discretion is already being used with young offenders.
As I've said since the beginning, when the crime is not a crime against the person, there should be more openness to alternatives.
In the case of substance use or narcotics possession, the police could, with the help of a social worker or joint team, decide not to tie up the courts with all these situations.
There could be the possibility of having joint teams to assess the situation, the individual's past and the objectives of certain programs to see whether remedial action can be used. I'm not completely opposed to that possibility.
The important thing is to be rational and to use a scale for the different situations. Indeed, it may be a public health problem, but limits also need to be set at some point. For someone who's using narcotics and who has a family, for example, the decision could have repercussions on the family.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.
Mr. Garrison, you have two and a half minutes.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to go back to Ms. Guerin, where Ms. Shanahan left off.
I want to talk about the interesting idea you've proposed here. As a result of Bill C-5, we might see ourselves ending up in negotiations with first nations to provide more services like overseeing conditional sentences. You talked about being at treaty tables and seeing growing capacity.
Could you say some more about that? Again, recognizing that conditional sentences only apply for those under two years, do you believe there are a lot of communities that could take up this challenge and provide effective conditional sentencing programs?
Manager, Indigenous Relations, British Columbia Infrastructure Benefits, As an Individual
In my view, yes, I think there is. I've worked with a number of nations, not just self-governing nations in B.C. but also those who are on the path toward that. I always call it a spectrum, so they're somewhere along that spectrum of self-government. Most of them are closer. Self-government isn't some moment that you just achieve and then it's all euphoric.
There's a lot of capacity in many of the nations to do this work. There would be interest in doing the work. The only caution I would have is if it were a conditional sentence for sexual assault, and both the victim and perpetrator were from the same community, it would require some circles to kind of work through the victim's feelings, I would expect. We've got many strong processes with elders in the courts over in B.C. that deal with all of these kinds of sentencing matters.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
To your earlier comment about trusting judges, judges rarely apply sentences of less than two years in cases of sexual assault, or other crimes involving violence directly.
Could I be a little more personal here at the end? Obviously, you went through traumatic experiences caused by systemic racism, and you managed to find your way through and out of those.
What do you think the critical factors are for young people who face those challenges in finding more positive paths, and how could we enhance those?