Justice Committee on May 6th, 2022

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

Thank you for the question.

What comes to mind when you ask the question is the growing problem we have in indigenous communities with gangs. It's really difficult when some of our community members belong to gangs. There are a lot of firearms and a lot of issues around that.

I don't think it would be appropriate to have a conditional sentence for a firearms offence or something like that if there were a victim within the community especially. I've been involved in situations where I've been asked to help mediate when there's.... If someone reports a gang member for something and then they go to jail, that person is then scared that the gang member is going to get out and scared about getting killed for reporting. These are people who live two blocks away from each other, so it's such a tight community that, I think, it's dependent on the crime.

With sexual assault, I think there would have to be a really fulsome plan put in place for how to deal with that. Maybe if there were preventative and support services there for women and children and anyone else who's been sexually abused or sexually assaulted....

I think there's a real effort in communities to try to put more consequences on our members when they commit crimes. If they want to remain in the community, the community are always looking for solutions to do that, so I think that's possible.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you.

In your work, you help people find jobs.

What burden do indigenous offenders bear when looking for work? What barriers or obstacles can they encounter?

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

Like I said, some of these programs really are targeting high-risk youth, those living on the streets and those coming out of care. There are some really good programs. There's one called BladeRunners. I always described it as one that's run on the streets. It's really embraced by the youth on the street because they see their friends who have gone into it be successful, get a life and get a career. I've actually had a lot of young people come up to me during the course of my work and ask if we could help them, how we could we remove these criminal records, because they say they can't access the program with a criminal record. They've got to wait for a pardon and all of that.

I just read with interest.... What's that line you have in here? It's something like, “Would prison do more harm than good?”

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Do you believe that abolishing mandatory minimum sentences will improve access to employment for indigenous offenders?

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

I think it could, yes, for sure. I really like the alternative to jail time that is addressed in there, referring to the alternatives to jail time. If we could try to keep our people out of jail, but get them the help they need, because so much of the social issues that we face in our communities are.... Well, you know what they are. They do shift a bit with each generation. Now we've got gangs infiltrating our communities, so that's an issue that a lot of communities are dealing with.

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

You feel, then, that it might be better to have adequate services in place, social services and such.

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

Yes, I think preventative support services or treatment programs would be well resourced.

I read some background information on this bill, and I'm sorry if I can't remember from where, but it talked about there perhaps being the possibility of developing an action plan with indigenous groups to provide well-resourced preventative community-based services and alternatives. I think that's fabulous.

My work as a lawyer has been primarily at treaty negotiation tables, watching communities get to self-government. We've got enough communities that are capable of running these programs, and I think that if it's well resourced, it could be a real shift in their getting some autonomy or authority or jurisdiction over this issue and dealing with it in their community.

You tend to find with first nations communities that when they are part of creating the solution, it tends to work. I think the community members embrace it. It gives it more legitimacy if it's not coming from on high, because instead it's a case of, “Oh, this is our community's approach.”

[Élisabeth Brière, Liberal, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Madame Brière, and thank you, Ms. Skalusat.

The next round is Monsieur Fortin's for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses who are here today, Ms. Skalusat and Mr. Wall.

I would like to put a question to Mr. Wall.

First, Mr. Wall, you are retired from the police department. You were a supervisor with the Montreal police.

For a few months, or a few years, we have seen some increase in gun violence in the Montreal area, and I am given to understand that this is a concern to many residents. Indeed, there's a lot of talk of it in my area, just north of Montreal.

According to what the police are saying, minimum sentences should be maintained because they will deter criminals. However, other people are saying that minimum sentences change nothing because, ultimately, judges will give the appropriate sentence, which should be about the same, or maybe even longer on occasion, than the minimum sentence currently set out in the Criminal Code.

I obviously have an opinion on those two positions, but I'm not here as a witness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are more of the opinion that mandatory sentences should be maintained because they serve as deterrents.

I'd like to hear from you again on that.

Do you really believe that a minimum sentence will deter potential assailants from committing a criminal act and using a firearm in a bank robbery or other offences set out in the Criminal Code?

[Stéphane Wall]

Thank you for your question.

I'll come back to the basics. Street gang members already enjoy impunity in the current system. Minimum sentences exist and will be maintained for several types of crimes. Currently, these people enjoy impunity on social media. When we dig a bit, we find all kinds of statements and boasting by young people and members of criminal groups, who are already laughing at the justice system.

Lowering the standard for serious crimes such as possession and use of a firearm is like telling these young people that society doesn't find their actions to be particularly serious. It sugar-coats things and says to them that they'll receive just a slap on the wrist. That is already the feeling on the street.

For me, I'm a field police officer. I talk to young people. I live near the Saint-Michel neighbourhood, where there are a lot of shootings, so I can tell you that the feeling on the street is that the legal system is lenient and that adding another layer will not do anything. I don't think anyone will be opposed to abolishing minimum sentences for crimes against property. However, for serious crimes against the person, involving firearms or sexual assaults, society must send a message. The government must be responsible and make it clear that lawmakers will not tolerate such acts. It is a matter of protecting....

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I agree with you. I don't want to interrupt, but unfortunately, we have very little time. I'd like to move on to another question.

That's the position of police, a position I realize is shared by many people. I'd like you to answer the next question based on your experience as a police officer on the ground and a retired police officer. I imagine that a lot of people around you know that you were a police officer. You are active, for example, by appearing before us today.

Does the opinion that minimum sentences should not be abolished originate somewhat with the police?

On the ground, what are the families of the victims and the families of the assailants who are in prison saying about possibly abolishing the minimum sentences associated with firearms?

[Stéphane Wall]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we have created a citizens group that includes people from diverse backgrounds. Ms. Murielle Chatelier wrote a letter to parliamentarians, which I invite you to read. It is co‑signed by people from diverse backgrounds.

When residents and victims' families, particularly those we met with, come together, they demand accountability for the acts committed. These people from the community realize that some people, some suspects, are complacent. They want accountability. According to them, families are part of society, but in the communities, accountability is needed and children must be told that, while they have rights, they also have duties toward others. Not all groups from diverse backgrounds think alike. It's important to consider accountability for actions.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What are young members of street gangs or victims of street gangs saying about minimum sentences?

[Stéphane Wall]

I'll speak about the victims who we've met, particularly fathers who've lost a child—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Unfortunately, Mr. Wall, we're out of time. Hopefully, we'll get to you in the next round.

Next, we go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking Ms. Guerin for her testimony today. It is difficult to relive trauma and injustice in public, and I thank her for her bravery in appearing. It is also important that survivors make their testimony to us. Whenever we've made progress against injustice, it's almost always because survivors have been willing to make that personal sacrifice. Again, my sincere thanks to Ms. Guerin.

I'd like to ask her about the differential costs, I guess I would call them, of incarceration for indigenous and non-indigenous people. When indigenous people are sentenced to a term in prison, can you talk about the effects that has on the family and the community?

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

I can speak from direct experience on that.

There were two situations in my family. It sounds like a lot to me, but then when you look at the statistics, you kind of understand how that statistic gets there.

Like I said, my mother went into Oakalla. It had a severe effect on her psychological and emotional well-being—just the stigma of it. Also, then, my ex, my first husband, served many sentences for drunk driving, like I said. I used to say that it was really strange, because as a family we have six kids and I'm at home trying to raise six kids.... I used to say to my ex, “You're in this minimum security club playing golf and I'm struggling to feed kids.”

Anyway, yes, I do think that—I don't know if I'm answering the question—it definitely has an effect on the families and on the communities, right, with the trickle effect of how it affects the kids, the community and stuff.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

In your direct experience that you've talked to us about, what you're talking about is the impact of the systemic racism, resulting in maybe repeated incarcerations for many people from indigenous communities, instead of seeing them get the treatment and support they need.

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

Yes. Like I said, in Canada, he was charged four or five times with drunk driving, and it had no effect. There was a cash penalty or weekends in jail or whatever. Then, when he got charged on the U.S.-Canada border, he had to appear in Blaine court, and they ordered him to go to a treatment centre. It changed our lives, right? It didn't just change our lives: He became a drug and alcohol counsellor. Because he had been such a chronic alcoholic, his credibility in the community to help people was way up. I just think that the trickle effect from him going to a treatment centre affected our whole community, right? That was a much better outcome.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Just to be clear, in this bill, when it talks about making conditional sentences available, we're talking about making conditional sentences available only for sentences of less than two years. I know that sometimes there are distortions that get brought into the testimony. We're not really talking about sentences of longer than two years, which would be for the most serious violent crimes, but again, I'm just asking you, from your experience, those who go in for short periods of time, do they get rehabilitation and treatment? Did your mother get any kind of supportive treatment when she was in Oakalla?

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

None that I'm aware of, and none when she got out. It had a real detrimental effect on her, I would say, on her mental health. She had physical health issues. She had been shot in the leg at one time and....

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm very interested in the BladeRunners program—it's a program I'm very familiar with—and the bar for getting into the program for those with criminal records.

In your personal experience, are there other additional penalties that people suffer when they have a criminal record in terms of access to housing or employment? Can you talk about some of those additional barriers?

[J. Michele Guerin Skalusat]

I don't know. I'm not familiar enough with them to know whether there are any for housing and jobs. Even in the work that I do, we've had someone we hired who had a criminal record, and then, interestingly, we had to let him go because of his criminal record, but it was the nature of his criminal record. He was working on a construction crew and facing charges of sexual assault on indigenous women, and then he was on a work crew of all indigenous people. There was a level of discomfort.

To me, I'm just so passionate about this BladeRunners thing, because I lived on the streets and I know what it's like to look ahead and think, “Oh my God, how am I going to build a life by myself?” You age out and you're alone. The young people in this program become a cohort together, you know. They just build each other up. They strengthen each other. That's why there are other kids on the street wanting to get into it.

I don't know if I answered your question properly.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Just very quickly, in your experience, for those who need to have the criminal records suspended or pardoned, how easy is it for them to access that process?