Evidence of meeting #29 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to start by thanking Ms. Davis for being with us today. Even though many years have passed, I know it must not be any less difficult to come and relive the loss of your family. Your dedication to public safety and to making sure there are no other victims of this offender is admirable. Despite the difficulties with the system you have, you have persevered, and I think we all thank you for that.
I know it was a long time ago, but can you talk a little bit about how you became aware of your rights as a victim of this crime? Was this all through your own research, or was there any outreach to you at the beginning?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
During the trial we did have a victim services person with us, but after the trial that was it. It was done. No one told us anything.
I had moved to the Yukon, and I decided up there that I was going to try to see what I could do and what I could find out, but it wasn't given to me.
I searched and searched for it until I found that I could get information on him and that it was my right to get information. I got that, I passed that information on to my family and we went on from there, just trying to do our best to find ways to get information on what was going to happen, what was coming next and how long until it was going to happen.
But nobody reached out to us at all to tell us where we should go when it was getting closer to his parole dates. No one reached out and said, just so you know, it's coming up in another year or two. He'll be due for parole. We just want to get you ready for it. There was nothing like that.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
We've heard testimony from other victims and victims' rights groups that there should be both some kind of initial compulsory notification of victims and ongoing compulsory notification of victims. I'm assuming you would be in support of those kinds of provisions.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I think your point on transparency is an important one. Not only does there need to be information about the process but the content of the process is quite often kept hidden from victims. I guess I'm asking you a leading question again here. Not just notification of the process but the content of what's going to be happening in the process would be important to victims.
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
It would be, and it would be good for us as victims to know what's gone on since the previous parole hearing. Has he made any changes? Has his behaviour gotten any better? Is he going to start to show remorse? Has he done anything to better himself? We don't find out any of that until the parole hearing. That's all kept away from us. All we get are updates on his day parole or if he has to go to a doctor's appointment out of the area and stuff like that.
When it comes down to stuff that really matters, which we need to know in order to talk to the Parole Board and let them know how we feel and what we think, we don't have that information. We don't have his convictions or anything he's done until afterwards.
We found out he was gambling, then he was selling cigarettes and then he got himself into debt. Then he couldn't afford this and that. He gets to those places and that's when you start to commit crimes again because that's all you know. But they don't tell us any of that.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
When you're trying to prepare victim impact statements, you're actually doing it in the dark, essentially.
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
We are. We're doing it from the last parole hearing and what the decision was then. That's basically all we have to base our statements on, which isn't much. We go back to when it happened because that is still very fresh in our minds, and we relive it every time we go to a parole hearing.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I want to return to the question that Mr. Fortin was asking about language.
Has the situation improved on language since your previous experiences, or are the proceedings...? Have they been going on in English so that this became not an issue again?
12:40 p.m.
As an Individual
They remain in French, but we have been able to continue with the translation services. My father worked with the victims ombudsman for a while, and he was on a committee for victim services, so I think a lot of that is due to my dad's insistence and fight for victims, which I appreciate greatly because none of us are French. We really need to know what's going on in these hearings.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
It wasn't really offered as a matter of right. It was something you, again, had to fight for.
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
No, it wasn't offered at all. It was just said that the hearing was going to be in French. We could read our statements in English, but the whole hearing was going to be in French. My father just said that can't happen. It's not fair to the victims; we need to know. We're given the right, as victims, to go to these hearings and present statements, but we should also be able to learn what has been going on and be able to hear and understand what the parole board is saying, what he is saying, and what his parole officer is saying.
There are other languages in Canada. I don't know if those are offered for translation when it comes to parole hearings, but I know that French and English are.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
We'll go to Mr. Richards next for five minutes.
October 3rd, 2022 / 12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
First of all, thank you very much for being here today.
I know this cannot be easy for you, much like everything you have to do in participating in the parole processes and various other things, which I'm sure are incredibly traumatic, so I thank you for being willing to step forward and put yourself through this difficult situation. I'm sure it will help ensure others a little less pain—ensure a little less pain in other victim's families' lives, I hope.
There are a few things that really hit me in terms of things you were talking about.
The first one, certainly, is the whole parole process. You can correct me if I'm wrong in how I understood this timeline, essentially, to have worked.
This offender was in prison for a previous crime, was parolled, reoffended and has been in what sounds like a lot of trouble in prison at various times. You talked about several hearings being cancelled as a result of the offender being in trouble, so he's clearly not on his best behaviour in prison as it is, by any means. Then he still somehow managed to get put on day parole and was able to, essentially, escape as a result of that and be out on....
When you look at that, and when anyone looks at that and hears that timeline, the outcome there is almost entirely predictable. It's predictable to you, as a victim's family member. It's predictable to me, hearing it for the very first time. How could it not have been predictable to our Parole Board? There's clearly a problem there. There's clearly something wrong with that system.
I wonder if you could shed any light on potential ways that it could be fixed. What could be done to ensure that those kinds of mistakes aren't being made again?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
I think their backgrounds really need to be looked at. If they keep having their paroles revoked and if they keep committing crimes while on parole and while they're in prison, it's obvious that they haven't changed. They're not changing. They don't deserve parole. You can only give someone so many chances. For someone who's been in and out of prison since 1970, as this offender was, I don't think you can rehabilitate them. I think he chooses crime and that's his choice. We, as victims and as the public, shouldn't have to suffer for it.
I think the Parole Board just kind of looks at as if, since they've been in there for this long, it has to continue giving them parole hearings. Even in this case there's not going to be a parole hearing, even though he just escaped and he was gone for three weeks. No one knew where he was. For three weeks he escaped custody. We don't even know what the warrant was for. We don't know what he did wrong.
It's difficult knowing that this decision is going to be made without any input from the victims.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
There's clearly a problem there. Clearly something needs to be learned from far too many examples of what your family and, unfortunately, many families have gone through as a result of, frankly, a failed system that allows offenders to continue to reoffend. There's a real problem there.
Thank you for those suggestions.
You mentioned the translation. I think there's an obvious solution there. If a victim needs translation into their language, it should be offered without a victim having to fight for it. I'm sure you would agree with that one.
I also want to commend you for taking action where the system itself didn't to ensure that the public was informed and protected from someone who was clearly a danger to society. I commend you for doing that. It sounds like it may have resulted or at least potentially aided in him being essentially caught. That is good, but obviously we shouldn't be in a situation where a victim's family has to take that kind of action. Clearly, there's something that needs to change here as well.
Can you give us any suggestions or recommendations on what should be improved to enable the system to ensure that victims don't have to be the ones taking action and so that the system actually takes action to protect Canadians?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Blake Richards Conservative Banff—Airdrie, AB
If I can, Mr. Chair, I would just ask Ms. Davis, if she has suggestions on that, to please provide them to this committee in writing.
I think it's very important that any suggestions you have be considered by this committee. Since you're not being given the time, maybe you could send it in writing and we can make sure they're followed up on.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Davis, thank you for your testimony, which brought back very painful feelings for you. We certainly felt that.
Since the CVBR was adopted, have you noticed a difference? Has it had positive effects?
If not, what recommendations or suggestions do you have?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
All of the parole hearings I've gone to seemed the same to me. I haven't noticed that anything has changed.
I can't say that we're offered support when we're there. We're not, when we go for our hearings. We're not provided information, especially. There's barely any transparency about what goes on outside of the parole hearings. We really don't know anything. All we're told is that they're on work release or they have to leave the area to do something. Other than that, we know nothing until we go to a parole hearing.
I think that we, as victims, should be able to know more of what he does day to day and, if he's doing anything wrong, whether they're thinking about revoking his parole. We should be told that stuff. That's stuff that we, as victims, deserve to know.
The only thing I've noticed that has got better is the ability to get the translation.
I wonder if there are victims out there who can't attend hearings because they can't afford to go to them. I know that your travel, meals and whatnot are paid for, but especially these days, people can't afford to take that time off work to travel. It's three days. How many victims are not able to speak up and fight to make sure that justice is served?
I think victims deserve that. They deserve some type of compensation, aside from their travel, to be able to go. People can't afford to lose three days' wages to go and fight for something that's their right to do.
