Evidence of meeting #32 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was defence.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions will be mostly for Ms. McBride.
Bill C-28 says people who have committed violent crimes cannot use the defence of voluntary extreme intoxication if they have consumed intoxicants in a negligent manner.
What impact do you think this bill will have on indigenous women, girls and gender-diverse people, and how would it affect their confidence in the justice system?
Manager of Legal Services, Native Women's Association of Canada
What will the impacts be on indigenous women and girls? It's a little bit of a difficult question. We need to understand that there are two competing interests here. On the one side, we have the overincarceration of indigenous women. On the other side, we have the overrepresentation of indigenous women and girls being victimized by violent crime.
On the side of protecting people from violent crime, I think that this bill is a rapid reaction to the Supreme Court's decision to, I think, primarily address the public misunderstanding about what that decision did and to calm down some of the myths that were spreading relatively rapidly. I think that's a good protection, though section 33.1 has existed for a long time and there's still overrepresentation so it's hard to say—maybe status quo.
As far as addressing the overincarceration is concerned, again, I don't think it's going to be particularly impactful just on its own. These cases are quite rare where 33.1 defences are made, but I don't think that it will result in more indigenous women being incarcerated necessarily.
Again, as I was saying earlier, the real return on investment for addressing these issues is going to be with the policies and programs. What are the effects? It's likely the status quo of prior to the Brown decision.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you for your answer.
I'd like to follow up with Ms. McBride's testimony that NWAC looks for a harm reduction and restorative justice framework. Can you please elaborate on how that would unfold and talk a little bit about this model?
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
First of all, I think we have to take into consideration that every first nation has their own way of dealing with justice issues. I would see in different situations different ways of healing.
I know for NWAC, right now we're looking at resiliency lodges, which I think is going to help our women who are going through different situations in their lives and hoping that we can give them the help that they need before going to this measure of extreme intoxication.
I think it all depends on the first nation. It should be up to the first nation to put in these healing mechanisms, because I think that's where the problems are going to be ironed out a little bit or solved a bit more than what they are now.
Right now, first nation communities, the Métis and the Inuit, we just don't have the money to be able to put in the services that are needed in the community. We are facing big problems, especially with addictions. Anyway, I hope that enlightens you a little bit on what's going on in our indigenous communities.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
It does, and I thank you so much for your very frank response.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Rob Moore
Thank you, Ms. Dhillon.
For two and a half minutes, we have Mr. Fortin.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to come back to what I was saying earlier.
Mr. Bond, I may have misunderstood what you said, so please correct me if I did. I thought you said that you were fine with Bill C-28 and that it was an appropriate response to the Supreme Court's decision in Brown.
Your preference, however, is the status quo before Brown. Obviously, that's not possible, except perhaps in fantasyland. We have to accept the Supreme Court's decisions.
I gather, then, that you're fine with the bill. If not, in two minutes or less, can you tell me exactly which provisions of the bill need to be amended and how?
Manager of Legal Services, Native Women's Association of Canada
I don't think I said that the status quo was accepted. The question was what was the effect on indigenous women. I said that the effect was going to be status quo.
Whether or not there are things that I would change, I think I answered this. There were two options. Both of those options led to the same outcome. I think that this bill, in that the purpose of it was to address the kind of public concerns about the Brown decision, is effective in doing that. If it's supposed to address the issue of extreme intoxication-related crimes, it didn't do that prior to Brown, and it's not going to do it after.
The crux of our comments here is that we need this to be coupled with services and programs to address substance misuse issues.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
I take it, then, that you don't have any recommendations on how the bill should be amended. Is that correct?
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Bond.
Ms. Dunn, I have the same question for you, but you have roughly 30 seconds to answer. Are there provisions in the bill that should be amended, and if so, how?
Executive Director, London Abused Women's Centre
I will try to be very quick.
Off the top of my head, to be honest with you, I can't tell you specific sections, but I think something important was said by Mr. Bond there. We need to work hand in hand with this legislation as it is. I know we can't change what has happened in the Supreme Court, but we need to work with organizations, especially with women with lived experience, to see how this unfolds and what will be best moving forward.
Conservative
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to come back to Ms. McBride.
We're talking about a very narrow case here of self-induced extreme intoxication, but we know that many more women, in particular indigenous and marginalized women, are subjected to sexual assault.
This is a kind of leading question. What are the services like for indigenous women who have been subjected to sexual assault? Do you feel the same level of services and the same culture appropriate services are available to indigenous women as are available elsewhere in our society?
President, Native Women's Association of Canada
I find that what we are suffering with in our communities is the lack of healing resources that would help our community, our women. We just don't have enough financial resources to bring in what we need.
Our people have been through a lot. These residential school people are coming back to a very poor community that can help them with their healing. I think we really have to concentrate on bringing those resources to the community. Healing can only happen based on what's within their own culture.
We have our own healing processes. Unfortunately, as I said, we all have poor communities. When you're talking about housing, food and everything else in everyday life that we need, we just don't have enough to go around.
Basically what we're hoping for is that we get enough resources to be able to help our people so they don't end up behind bars, so that they don't end up being victims, and they don't end up being a woman who has to put up with violence. We're hoping to get our men healed or within our healing process before this happens.
I hope that helps a bit.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
It's very important testimony to get the committee to focus on. It's not just the narrow law in front of us, but how we address the problem that results in having to have such a law.
Thank you very much for your testimony.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Rob Moore
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
I want to thank all of our witnesses who appeared here and virtually. We appreciate your input as we study the subject matter of Bill C-28.
Members, I would ask those of you who are on virtually to use the second link sent to you a few minutes ago for the second part of our meeting. That part is going to be in camera.
I will be relinquishing the chair to our real chair at that point. The second hour of our meeting is in camera.
I want to thank our witnesses. We appreciate your testimony.
I will suspend the meeting for a few minutes.
[Proceedings continue in camera]