Evidence of meeting #35 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was survivors.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Yes, we spoke with the Minister of Justice's office.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
What guidance did you impart when you were consulted in relation to Bill C-28?
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
If the government was going to move forward with a legislative response to the Brown decision striking down the former section 33.1, we felt that this was the option that ought to be pursued, as opposed to a second option that was offered up by the Supreme Court of creating a stand-alone offence for extreme intoxication.
To put it this way, it's sort of a pared-down version of the former section 33.1, which allows some nuance and tailoring in the consideration of how the provision applies.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON
Ms. Khan, I will come to you. You talked about a gross misunderstanding of the Supreme Court's decision. You're in this space. You work in a university setting. I just cannot imagine the kind of gross misinformation that you must have seen in light of that decision, which probably amplified already pre-existent misconceptions around sexual violence, sexual conduct and their intersection with alcohol and drugs.
Can you speak to that experience and how you were able to get the correct information out and negate some of those abhorrent views that may exist out there?
12:25 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
So, 71% of post-secondary students have been subjected to or have witnessed sexual assault or harassment. Much of that includes alcohol-facilitated sexual assault. During the first time that it was appealed, and then the Supreme Court decision, we had survivors come into our office in tears, come up to us during training, saying, “Well, I guess I can't report. No one is going to believe me. He's going to get off.” They would say in workshops that there is no point in reporting because no one is going to go forward with this, because now they can do it without any repercussions. It was a consistent thing. We actually had to change the way we did our training.
I am a part of the federal government-funded project called “Courage to Act”, which is leading the conversation on gender-based violence at universities and colleges across the country. We were working with organizations from across the country having the same conversation. They had survivors coming in terrified that they no longer could report, or, if they had reported, that during the trial it would be pushed out because of this decision.
We actually worked really closely with LEAF. We approached them and talked to the ministry of justice and said, “There's a problem here. Can you give us more information that we can have about this?” You should not need a law degree—because most survivors don't have one—to understand the decisions that the SCC makes. That's the problem we have a lot of the time. It's not that people aren't smart. It's not that people don't know things. It's that they know other things. Making sure that it's plain language, making sure it's accessible, is really important to us. It's about making sliders on Instagram and talking to our peers, but I think there's a big challenge in that social location impacts the ways in which people feel safe to report and the ways people are criminalized.
Another part of that was talking about what could be done differently with people who have sexually assaulted someone—alcohol-facilitated sexual assault. I would say to you all that we need to invest also in accountability counselling, and work specifically with men who have committed sexual assault, young men. If women between the ages of 16 and 24 are the largest age group who are targeted for sexual assault, that means the majority of that is done by their peers. We're not doing that work, and it's important.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Ms. Khan. Unfortunately we're out of time.
Mr. Fortin, you have six minutes.
12:30 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Hrick and Ms. Khan, thank you for joining us today.
Ms. Khan, my colleague Mr. Naqvi has encroached a bit on the question I wanted to ask you. I am also interested in how people perceive Bill C-28, as well as the correction that the government intends to make with respect to the interpretation of what may constitute a defence against certain crimes when it comes to extreme voluntary intoxication.
How do people see this? You've talked a lot about TikTok. Based on the answer you just gave, I understand that there is a negative perception or at least a negative effect that makes victims of sex crimes less likely to report them, as they are afraid that they will not be believed and that the perpetrator will not be found guilty. I am interested in this aspect.
I assume that women come to talk to you about a crime committed against them, and you explain the situation to them. Once you explain to them the scope of section 33.1 of the Criminal Code, do they understand and recognize its merits? Or, on the other hand, despite all the explanations given, do the victims feel that there is never an excuse, if I may say so, for the crime committed against them? This reaction is certainly understandable. In any event, I would like to know what the reality is on the ground when victims understand the scope of section 33.1.
12:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
I love this question because this is the crux of the issue.
I travel across Canada and America as well, talking about sexual assault and consent with young people. The biggest issue they are challenged with is alcohol-facilitated sexual assault. It's the number one thing that young men will say: “Well, if I'm drinking and she's drinking, is this okay?” This initial decision made it more complicated because people didn't have the answers they needed, or they felt as if it was shutting it down.
We do make sure that we have included provisions within our training and have one-on-one conversations with survivors, so we train our staff and have those conversations of how to talk about it when they bring up these things. For a lot of people, they feel like the sky is falling. They feel like it's the worst thing that's ever happened to them.
With regard to young men, they are already feeling confused about consent because we don't have comprehensive sexual health education in Canada that actually teaches young men, young women and all genders—because all genders are sexually assaulted and all genders can commit sexual assault—on what their roles and responsibilities are or how to have sexual communication. What is masculinity? What does gender have to do with it? So, a lot of our work is unpacking those.
I will say this. There's a moment of relief. I can't describe the face that I see in front of me when I'm doing a counselling appointment and a survivor says to me, “You mean I can still talk to someone?” Yes, you can. Luckily, in Ontario, we have the independent legal advice pilot project where survivors can access up to four hours of free legal advice, but that doesn't exist in every province, so they have nowhere to go.
This is an access to justice issue. This is about access to public legal education. I would ask you to please invest in talking to people who work with young people around this. Invest in people who are doing the work on the ground. Bring us in. We want to talk to you about this stuff.
I would say that the justice department has been great about conversations around it, but they need to have more resources to be able to do what we need to happen around communication.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
We understood earlier that Ms. Hrick was consulted by representatives of the Minister of Justice before Bill C-28 became law. Were you also consulted, Ms. Khan?
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
Yes. I did have the opportunity to speak to members of the justice department.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
Do you believe that the current form of section 33.1 of the Criminal Code addresses the concerns you raised with the minister?
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
Yes. It actually gives provisions and ways in which people could go about addressing this, so I think, absolutely, it does. However, again, it's how we communicate those and how we make sure not only that the public knows, but also that the defence counsel understands it, that the Crown prosecutors understand it, that the police understand it.
What we have seen, time and again, is survivors coming forward with stories. They say, “I reported it to the police, and the police said, 'Oh, I don't think this can go forward'” or they give misinformation to a survivor. This is not just about “public” as in the general public. These are people who work within the court system—judges, lawyers, police, people in frontline services, the victim/witness program. We need to ensure that they have the education to understand this.
Yes, I agree with the provisions, but I think we have to go farther. Provisions aren't enough. It's how we apply them.
12:35 p.m.
Bloc
Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC
In summary, a good communication plan would be important for this aspect.
Thank you, Ms. Khan and Ms. Hrick.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Monsieur Fortin.
Next we go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both of the witnesses.
I think it has been very useful to broaden the conversation beyond the specifics of legalities. I think you made the important general point that our priorities are sometimes revealed by our spending. We spend a lot on incarceration. We spend a lot on the criminal justice system. We don't spend so much on prevention and education.
I saw Ms. Hrick nodding a lot during Ms. Khan's presentation. I would ask you, Ms. Hrick, to comment on that relative prioritization of where we work on the issue of sexual assault.
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Happily.
Yes, I was nodding along quite a lot. I find I do that when Farrah is speaking, because she's right. We do need to prioritize better funding for prevention and education and, where sexual assault has occurred, support for survivors. As Ms. Khan correctly pointed out, we also need support for accountability for people who have committed sexual assault, especially young people.
We really need to have in place a fully funded national action plan to address gender-based violence and violence against women. Funding for prevention, for education and for systems outside of formal legal processes to support survivors in finding the accountability and justice that works for them is critical.
I would like to see a greater investment in the sector in delivering on those important issues, which would also align with an earlier committee member's line of questioning about what we can do where we are to help educate the public. We do need funding and support to be able to do that.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Of course, I guess it does tell us a lot that this work is left to women-led NGOs in our society. My own experience for many years with non-governmental organizations was that there was lots of project funding, but there was rarely money to keep the lights on. The core funding issue was really a hard one for the NGOs. You can go to people and say, “I have a good idea”, but you can't run those good ideas without the core funding.
Ms. Khan, I'd ask you to comment on that challenge.
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
That is a challenge near and dear to my heart. I've been working in the field of not-for-profit. It raised me. The thing is always that we don't have the money to do our core services, so we're chasing grant after grant. People are living on shoestring budgets. There is an expectation to do tremendously important work that will actually help society thrive. If you want a thriving economy, you have to address violence. If you want a good education system, you have to address violence. If you want non-carceral approaches and other things to address violence and oppression, you have to address this.
We need to have core funding and we need to stabilize this sector. This sector needs to have the core funding it needs to do the work, including work with all parties involved in sexualized violence: respondents, complainants, survivors and families. I think the thing is that we oftentimes see the priorities skewed, such that we feel we have to focus on all these other pieces. But unless you have people who feel safe, people who feel as though they are nourished and nurtured, we will not move forward. I absolutely think that.
I also think a big part of it is expanding what we see as justice. If only 6% to 10% of survivors are reporting sexual assault, then we need to support those other survivors who are not. Where is the money going to support them? We look at the money being spent on carceral approaches as compared to that spent on supportive healing approaches, and there's a big difference.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you.
Ms. Hrick, could you respond to the same question on core funding for the organizations that do this important work?
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
Again, I am in very enthusiastic agreement with Ms. Khan. It's a hugely important issue. I speak especially as a member of a national organization. We don't have options to access, for example, core funding that might be offered at the provincial or territorial level. We need to know that year to year we will have a certain pot of funding that will allow us to pursue the work that I know is important to members of this committee and to members of the communities for which LEAF advocates.
We need to be able to have the stability and resources to do that on an ongoing basis. Every time we have to pick up a pen to write and submit an application for a grant, that takes us away from doing that important core work.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I have very little time, but I want to broach the question of the differential impacts of sexual assault and our efforts to combat it on marginalized women, both racialized and poor. Maybe I can just ask that question generally quickly to both of you.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director, Possibility Seeds
Our social location, our race, our gender and our sexuality impact the way in which we are believed. Are we going to approach the police if our community has been criminalized by the police time and time again? We are not. So Muslim communities, Black communities, indigenous communities, South Asian communities, racialized communities and queer communities may not feel safe to report, let alone access services or be seen as someone who can get the help they need, so these things absolutely have an impact.
We have to look at an intersectional approach and recognize that so many people don't access support. I would add gay men in there too. So many men come to our service, and what's interesting is that.... I work in an all-gender service, whereas before I worked just with women. It's been seven years now, and it's been a lightning rod to see so many men come forward and say, “I was sexually assaulted. I need support.” Before, there was nowhere for them to go, and now there is somewhere.
12:40 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
I know there's very little time, but, Ms. Hrick, perhaps you could make a quick comment.
12:40 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Women's Legal Education and Action Fund
I don't know how many times I'm allowed to simply agree with Farrah, but I will agree with her. I'll leave it at that. I can't put it any more eloquently.