Justice Committee on Nov. 14th, 2022

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

I think a number of lawyers across the country are probably nervous about the direction of that question, but it's very intriguing and we can do a better job of exploring the standing of victims in the court process. There are other countries where there are more rights in place around legal representation for victims, and there are pros and cons to the different approaches to it.

I want to acknowledge that the raising of the defence can sometimes be just as harmful to the victim as a successful defence. It causes distress to go through the court process. I think if there's a way to consider it early, without needing to go through a full trial, that is valuable and it merits more study.

It's a very interesting question.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm certainly not trying to alarm anybody. I'm trying to look at the mechanism by which we get to the most efficient trial that balances the charter rights of the accused, but also recognizes the inherent harm that victims go through in what we would often call secondary victimization. The primary victimization is the offence. The secondary victimization is going through the trial process.

Dr. Roebuck, you just mentioned that we have to balance these things. What I'm putting forward is a balance. I hope that this is a recommendation.

I see my time is up.

Ms. Thomas, I thank you for that. That's a very vital issue, as far as financial assistance for representation is concerned. Let's face it: Most people who are victimized can't afford a lawyer. I think that would have to be dependent...and I would urge legal aid in all provinces to make that funding available if such a recommendation is accepted.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

Next is Ms. Diab for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Thomas, welcome.

Mr. Roebuck, congratulations on your new post. I'm sure there's a lot of work ahead of you.

I've listened to the last number of sessions over a couple of weeks. There's been talk about what the government had to do to bring forth.... I've also listened to a lot of the misinformation that was there prior to the introduction and, quite frankly, continued. It's misinformation that is still out there. As a woman, that disturbs me a lot.

Ms. Thomas, thank you for your testimony and bringing to light once more that there are support services that are desperately needed for a woman who experiences sexual violence, intimate partner violence, gender-based violence and all of that. Obviously, it's for all victims' rights.

What I'd like to ask you, Mr. Roebuck, since you're with us today, is if you can please share with us what support services are available across Canada for victims. In particular, are there any for sexual assault survivors, for women survivors of intimate violence and so on?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

Across Canada, we have diverse responses to victimization. Each province and territory has different mechanisms for funding and supporting services.

What we see in many places would be some sort of generic service for victims of crime that any type of survivor can access. In Ottawa, we have Ottawa Victim Services. That would be more generic. There are also specialized services for survivors of sexual assault, like a rape crisis centre or a sexual assault centre, or specialized services around domestic violence.

It's always challenging for many of these services to be funded, and many pursue grants year after year for pilot funding or cyclical funding. They spend so much time trying to secure the resources to do the work, which they could be spending on serving survivors if they had more resources. Our research centre, prior to coming into this post, looked at the well-being of the victim service providers in this time during the pandemic. Certainly, the pressures of responding to these complicated cases are taking a toll.

I think we need to do a better job of supporting the providers who are trying to work with the survivors.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

I take it that the services differ depending on what province or territory you're in.

A second question to that is, what can you do, in your role, to have more of an equal footing for any victim across the country, regardless of who they are, what economic status they have and, quite frankly, where they live?

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

I love that question.

I do have a limited jurisdiction, in terms of looking at federal legislation while the administration of justice in a lot of victim services is in the provincial and territorial jurisdiction. However, we have really wonderful groups like the federal-provincial-territorial working group for victims of crime that's bringing together provincial stakeholders with federal stakeholders, sharing information and really starting to consider some of the ways we can improve services across the country.

I think we definitely need a better connection with the transfer from folks in the provincial victim services into the federal one if there's an offender who is sentenced to two years or more.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Ms. Thomas, would you have any recommendations to make for us in terms of how we can best help you to get more information out to the people and the women you are serving?

[Rhiannon Thomas]

That's a big question.

I'll just echo this recognition of the disparities between federal and provincial systems and the disconnect that occurs. I'm heartened to hear about a provincial-federal victims committee—I forget what it's called—that discusses this.

If the committee would like to share this information, it needs to go out through those networks that already exist, because there are networks throughout the country and, as others have said, they differ depending on whether you live in a rural setting or in a city.

I'm in a city. I'm in one of the biggest cities in our country, and speaking just about here, I know that the services are insufficient. I can only imagine how that is for someone living in a rural area.

I think it's crucial. If you want to talk about communication, you are going to want to look at the services and systems that are in place and talk to the people who are doing that work on the front lines now. That's how the information will get back out to victims, survivors and advocates who do this work.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you, Ms. Thomas.

My time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

Next, for two and a half minutes, we'll go to Mr. Perron.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Thomas, I have significant concerns regarding everything this bill brings up, particularly the secondary factor of fear and intimidation that could prevent victims from reporting a crime. You also alluded to this earlier.

I am pleased to see that everyone agrees that it is important for the government to tell Quebequers and Canadians very soon that this defence will not be an easy route for everyone.

Do you have a specific recommendation for the government in this regard?

[Rhiannon Thomas]

I'm not clear on what the question is.

[Yves Perron, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I have a significant concern, which you also expressed earlier.

With this issue being in the media and questions about section 33.1, I am concerned that, even if we try to get a clear message out to the public quickly, women or any other victims will be even more afraid to report offences because there is that doubt, especially if they know that the perpetrator was intoxicated. In fact, earlier, Mr. Roebuck spoke about the importance of having clear language so that the public understands it.

Do you have a recommendation for the Committee on this specific point?

[Rhiannon Thomas]

You made a key point there, which was that despite the quick response about the issue, there will still be this concern.

I think that speaks deeply to the history of how these systems work and all of the underlying issues of why women do not speak up, particularly with sexual violence, but also with other kinds of gender-based and intimate partner violence. It's because there are no systems in place to respond to it. No matter how quickly the government may respond, if those systems and services are not in place to help survivors, then it's very difficult for people not to become more afraid that this defence is going to fuel a system that already works against victims and survivors of sexual and other violence.

Again, my recommendation is to really look at those systems and how they are unevenly distributed throughout the country. If you consider the under-reporting of those crimes versus how many there actually are, and then how funding might be distributed to those services based on reported crimes, I think you might start to get that picture together.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Thomas.

Thank you, Mr. Perron.

Lastly, we have Mr. Garrison for two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of the witnesses for bringing our attention back to the larger challenges that we face in the justice system beyond those that we are addressing in Bill C-28. I particularly want to thank Ms. Thomas for reminding us of the interaction between poverty, systemic racism and access to justice in our system.

Since time is drawing to a close here, I'd like to briefly give each of the witnesses a chance to add anything that they want to say at this time in these hearings.

I'll go to Ms. Thomas first, and then to Dr. Roebuck.

[Rhiannon Thomas]

Thank you.

I don't think I have anything else to add. I'd just reiterate our appreciation for your having us come and speak and for recognizing those intersections that you just mentioned.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Dr. Roebuck, go ahead.

[Dr. Benjamin Roebuck]

I think it's important to consider the compound effect on survivors of violent crime of a number of legislative pieces that are happening right now.

When we have questions about intoxication, when the Supreme Court strikes down the mandatory reporting on sex offender registration and when victims see measures like mandatory minimum penalties being dismantled, I think there is work to do to ensure that we are considering the rights and protections of victims. We should be looking to mitigate some of the compound effects that are happening at the moment.

I am very thankful for the work that this committee is doing. I look forward to working with you over the next few years.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.