Evidence of meeting #37 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Patrick Xavier  Acting Deputy Director and Senior Counsel, Judicial Affairs Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice
Nancy Othmer  Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 37 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Pursuant to the order of reference of October 31, the committee is meeting to begin its study of Bill C-9, an act to amend the Judges Act.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating via video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation, for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I will remind you that all comments should be addressed to the chair. For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can. We appreciate your patience.

I also use elementary cue cards to tell you when there are 30 seconds remaining and when you're out of time. I don't like interrupting. Hopefully, you'll keep your eye out for that. This committee is actually really good at keeping time.

I'd now like to welcome our first witness appearing today. We have the good pleasure—

Go ahead, Mr. Fortin.

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

A point of order, Mr. Chair, before we start the meeting.

Would you please confirm that the sound checks have been done for each of the witnesses who are here in person? I don't think anyone is participating in the meeting virtually, but, if someone is, would you please confirm that the checks were done just before the meeting?

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

They were done, Monsieur, and even the members online have been tested as well.

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

Again, I'd like to welcome the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

Thank you for returning to this committee. The floor is yours for five minutes.

3:30 p.m.

LaSalle—Émard—Verdun Québec

Liberal

David Lametti LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's always a pleasure to be with you. Most of you are participating in the meeting in person. Mr. Garrison and Mr. McDonald are participating virtually.

I am accompanied by Nancy Othmer, Patrick Xavier and Anna Dekker, my colleagues from the Department of Justice, who will be helping me answer any technical questions.

As I said, Mr. Chair, it's an honour for me to be here today to speak to you about Bill C-9, an act to amend the Judges Act.

I will take this opportunity to thank all of you for the unanimous support for this bill at second reading.

As you know, this bill reforms the process used to address complaints against federally appointed judges. The soundness and effectiveness of the judicial conduct review process can have a significant impact on the independence of the judiciary. This legislation will make the judicial conduct review process more efficient and more cost-effective.

This legislation is the fruit of years of careful study and analysis, including consultations between the legal community and the general public, and extensive dialogue with the Canadian Judicial Council and the Canadian Superior Courts Judges Association. In my view, Bill C-9 sets out what would become a world-leading judicial conduct review process and one that will serve Canadians exceptionally well for years to come.

We need a judiciary that is strongly independent, one that is able to render judgments without fear of reprisal. At the same time, Canadians rightly demand to hold judges accountable to a high standard of professionalism.

In 1971, Parliament, through the Judges Act, assigned responsibility for handling complaints against judges to the Canadian Judicial Council, or the “CJC”. The Judges Act sets out the key elements of a process that served Canadians well for decades. However, shortcomings in the legislative framework have become more and more pronounced over the last few years, prompting growing calls for Parliament to act. This includes calls from the CJC itself.

In developing reforms, the government carefully considered feedback from the general public received through an online survey as well as from a number of key stakeholders, including the Canadian Bar Association, the Federation of Law Societies and provinces and territories.

We listened carefully. Our focus was to craft a process that the public would have confidence in, one that is rigorous and fair, yet timely and effective.

Constitutional principles dictate that a judge cannot be removed from office without having a judge-led hearing into their conduct. As I noted, Parliament has assigned this important task to the CJC. In light of this, my department's officials engaged in sustained discussions with the CJC to ensure that this legislative proposal could benefit from the council's 50-year experience running the judicial conduct review process. Departmental officials also engaged with the Canadian Superior Court Judges Association to understand its concerns regarding process reform.

I take this opportunity to thank both the CJC and the association for these discussions and their commitment to serving Canadians.

I wish here to highlight two main areas of particular concern. The first is efficiency. As it stands, the process takes too long and is too expensive. Of course, the Constitution demands rigour and sensitivity in the handling of complaints against judges. Yet, when the resolution of complaints at times stretches on for years on end, and at great expense to the taxpayer, Canadians rightly ask whether there is a better way.

This is perhaps best underscored by the multiplication of judicial reviews that we have witnessed over the last few years with respect to certain complaints, creating the perception that judges launch these proceedings to effect delay rather than to pursue legitimate legal interests. Bill C‑9 responds directly to these concerns by making the process much more efficient.

A second shortcoming involves the all-or-nothing nature of the existing process, which is designed to answer a single question: Does the complaint warrant the judge's removal from office? No other sanction is available. This fact colours every step in the process. This risks unfairness to judges subject to complaints, who may be subject to a full-scale inquiry and its proceedings for conduct that would more appropriately be addressed through lesser sanctions. Further, this risks undermining the public's trust in the process. Members of the public may be perplexed and rightly dissatisfied when complaints are dismissed despite problematic conduct because the conduct in question did not reach the high threshold of justifying removal from office.

Bill C-9 addresses this concern by introducing, for the first time, the ability to impose sanctions for misconduct that do not warrant removal from office but that nonetheless demand some form of remedy and accountability. These could include, for example, mandating training sessions.

I do not have time in these remarks to discuss all of the improvements proposed by the bill. In the time I have left, let me highlight three key improvements.

First, greater transparency through greater participation of lay members. The current process has a limited role for lay members, which, in this context, refers to individuals who are not judges or lawyers. There is currently one lay member on the five-member review panels.

Bill C‑9 changes this. There would continue to be one lay member on review panels, but these review panels would be more efficient—having only three members and being empowered to impose sanctions for any misconduct not serious enough to warrant removal from office. Second, hearing panels established to conduct public hearings on whether a judge should be removed from office would now include a lay member. These improvements directly address the system's current shortcomings, increase efficiency, and allow for more appropriate and targeted accountability.

The second point to highlight is how Bill C-9 streamlines the appeal process. The current process provides too many opportunities for judges subject to complaints to seek judicial review of decisions made by the council at different stages in the process. This is costly and results in excessive delay and undermines public confidence. Further, after the inquiry committee has issued its recommendation on whether a judge should be removed from office, the current process requires review of this decision by what is termed “council of the whole”, where quorum requires participation by at least 17 CJC members. This body's powers are unclear, and legal decision-making by a body of this size has proven challenging.

To address both of these concerns, Bill C-9 would introduce an appeal mechanism internal to the judicial conduct process. An appeal panel made up of three CJC members and two puisne judges would have broad powers to remedy any shortcomings in the process. The only recourse available to the judge wishing to challenge the decision of an appeal panel would be to seek leave to appeal directly to the Supreme Court of Canada. Entrusting process oversight to the Supreme Court will reinforce public confidence and avoid lengthy judicial review proceedings through several levels of court. This will save time and costs while still providing robust fairness for judges subject to complaints.

The third and final point to highlight relates to the costs associated with the process. The day‑to‑day costs of handling complaints are fairly consistent and predictable, and would continue to be so under the new process. However, the costs associated with inquiry committees are highly variable and unpredictable, given the significant year‑to‑year variability in the number of public inquiries conducted. As a result, administrators must rely on complex mechanisms to seek necessary funding on an ad hoc basis. This is a longstanding problem that Bill C‑9 would rectify by introducing a statutory appropriation to provide a stable funding mechanism for the highly variable portion of the process' costs associated with public hearings.

This is not only a sound practical solution, but is also justified by the fact that these public hearings are constitutionally required. To ensure sound stewardship of these funds, the bill would introduce several measures, including requiring that an independent review be completed every five years into all costs paid through the statutory appropriation. The findings and recommendations of this review would be made public.

I thank you for your time and attention today. I wholeheartedly recommend this bill, knowing that it will profoundly improve the judicial conduct review process to the benefit of Canadians.

I look forward to your questions after having had a glass of water.

3:40 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Now we will go to the first round.

Mr. Brock, you have six minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here sharing your expertise with respect to our studies.

You are, indeed, correct. We will continue to support Bill C-9 going forward. That is a given.

Given my background, it's very important to me that we all hold ourselves responsible for our conduct and our actions, and judges are no different.

I would like to start by asking you this question. I think you would agree with me that Bill C-9 strikes the appropriate balance between maintaining the confidence of the public with respect to our judiciary and the interests of the complainants.

Do you agree with that?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I definitely do agree with that. First of all, there will be more transparency in the system for the complainant, for the person who files the initial complaint. There will be a greater amount of lay participation in the system, as well as a balanced amount of expert participation in the system—lawyers and judges. There will very much be a streamlined process, so that for the complainant, they won't see all of these side appeals to the Federal Court on judicial reviews—well, they're not technically appeals, but you know what I mean.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Minister.

I have a limited amount of time and a lot to get through.

You may or may not agree with me, but the public's confidence in our judiciary has been shaken significantly as a result of some pretty controversial Supreme Court of Canada decisions. With the time permitting, I want to touch upon two decisions: Bissonnette and Sharma. In my view, you need to know what the feeling is on the street and the community, and I want to have your thoughts in terms of the government's response.

As we know, in the Bissonnette decision, the Supreme Court of Canada unanimously struck down section 745.51 of the Criminal Code as violating section 12 of the charter—not saved by section 1—and made it retroactive to the day it was enacted, in this case 2011.

We all know the facts of the case. We need not belabour the point. It was a horrendous crime that shocked the conscience of not only the Muslim community but everyone across the country. In their ruling, the justices indicated that longer periods of parole eligibility, in this case upwards to 75 years, were “degrading in nature and thus incompatible with human dignity, because they deny offenders any possibility of reintegration into society, which presupposes, definitely and irreversibly, that they lack the capacity to reform and re-enter society”. They said that “Although Parliament has latitude to establish sentences whose severity expresses society's condemnation of the offence committed, it may not prescribe a sentence that deprives every offender on whom it is imposed of any realistic possibility of parole”.

Minister, I want you to listen very carefully to the words we heard from various victims when we studied government's response to victims of crime. One such victim was Sharlene Bosma. She indicated that, on May 6, 2013, her husband, Tim, was taken from their home and shot in his own truck across the road from their house. His body was eventually taken to the Waterloo airport and then burned in an animal incinerator. She spent eight days searching the province for him, not knowing where he was. On the eighth day, her world fell apart when she learned one of the most horrifying phrases in the English language: His body was burned beyond recognition. She says:

I cannot convey the overwhelming amount of joy and relief that we as a family shared when the court determined consecutive life sentences in each case—75 years and 50 years for cold-blooded, heartless killers. As the mother of a little girl who was not quite two and a half when her father was murdered, I was extremely thankful that she would never, ever have to face the monsters who killed her father for no reason other than they simply could. In May of this year, our government took away one of the very few things that we as victims had to hold on to, which was consecutive sentencing. It was one of the greatest blows that the Canadian government has ever dealt to victims of violent crime. It says to us that someone can kill as many people as they want here in Canada because sentencing will not change. It says that Canada only places value on the first victim, with the lives of any other victims not mattering—not here in Canada.

We also heard from another family who indicated the profound impact this decision has had.

I know that you showed compassion in the House of Commons, Minister, when the decision was released. I'm looking at a news release from one of the publications on the Internet. In a media statement, you indicated as follows: “Our position was clear, we supported a sentencing judge's discretion to impose a longer period of parole ineligibility where appropriate. However, we will respect the court's decision and carefully review its implications and the path forward.”

Since hearing those words—and I remember you in the House using those or similar words—what has the government done? What is the government doing to address the pain that these victims are feeling and the overall sense that this is no longer a justice system but merely a legal system?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Unfortunately, Minister Lametti, you have 10 seconds to answer this.

Also, I don't believe it was relevant to the bill, Mr. Brock, but I'll still give him the opportunity to answer.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

It's unfortunate; I would like to answer the question.

I am open to ideas. We're studying that decision. We're trying to be compassionate to victims.

Note that the court did not change the total sentence. The consecutive sentences still exist; the court did not strike that down. What they did do, unequivocally, was to say that you needed to have a chance at parole at different stages in that process. They left the sentences intact, however.

It is, as you pointed out, a 9-0 decision. It's a clear decision by the Supreme Court, so it doesn't present an easy map forward, but we are studying the decision. We're studying ways to support victims, and we're also looking at the decision, and I'm open to good ideas.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Lametti and Mr. Brock.

It's over to you, Madame Brière.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here in committee.

We know the decision in the Girouard case was a judicial saga that received extensive media coverage.

Further to your remarks, would you please tell us how the new Bill C‑9 would reduce delays and costs and make the complaints process for efficient.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you for your question, Ms. Brière.

In the unfortunately well-known case of former Justice Girouard, we saw that every possible effort was made to conduct a judicial review and to appeal from the decision and that every tactic was used to prolong the process and increase costs and delays. Unfortunately, when the Supreme Court ultimately dismissed the application for leave to appeal, I informed Parliament that I was prepared to remove Justice Girouard from office, but he retired with full pension.

In one of the fall economic statements, about a year and a half ago, we resolved the pension plan issue, but now we need to review the process.

We currently have a process with clear guidelines and a transparent procedure for appealing from decisions to the courts. The review panels consist of judges, lawyers and lay members. So we can trust the system.

Judges will have the assurance that they will be treated fairly, and the general public will see that the process is more efficient, less costly, shorter, clearer and more transparent.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you very much.

You also said that sanctions would be imposed if the situation didn't necessarily warrant the judge's removal from office.

Please tell us a bit more about these new sanctions.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

We've provided for the possible imposition of lesser and flexible sanctions, where appropriate.

Only one sanction was possible in the former system, and that was removal. However, there were instances in which judges had committed errors that were significant, severe and serious, but not to the point of warranting removal from office.

Now, as part of a parallel process, we would also be able to determine whether a judge is guilty and to impose a more appropriate penalty in the circumstances. I cited the example of training sessions for judges.

Consider the example of a judge accused of making an inappropriate remark during a judicial proceeding in a sexual assault case. The penalty mandated might be to attend training sessions on sexual assault, which would remedy the matter. The training sessions would help increase the judge's awareness of the social context and perhaps avoid removal if the judge can demonstrate competencies in other fields.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

He could also be asked to apologize.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

He could also be asked to apologize, obviously.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

What's the benefit of allowing laypeople to sit on review panels?

I'd just like to say that I don't know if a member of the Chambre des notaires du Québec could be—

3:55 p.m.

Voices

Oh oh!

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

I won't hold that against you.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Ms. Brière, it's important for laypeople to be involved. Their point of view during the process is important because their opinions and experience may represent those of other laypeople, that is to say individuals who appear before the courts. Their experience, in itself, is very important, as is their involvement.

Their presence also adds an element of transparency to the system, since involvement isn't reserved solely for judges and lawyers.