Evidence of meeting #52 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Superintendent Sydney Lecky  Commanding Officer, G Division, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Robert A. Davis  Chief of Police, Brantford Police Service
Darren Montour  Chief of Police, Six Nations Police Service

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 52 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Pursuant to Standing Order 108 and the motion adopted on January 30, 2023, the committee is beginning its study on Canada's bail system.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House Order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application.

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members. Actually, I'll pass on that, as I think that all who are online are experienced members and the witnesses here all know how to use the Zoom functions.

For the first hour, we have the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. With the minister, we also have, from the Department of Justice, Matthew Taylor, a frequent visitor here, general counsel and director, criminal law policy section.

We welcome you both and are glad to have you here.

Minister, you have 10 minutes, followed by questions. The floor is yours.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Mr. Chair, can you please tell us whether the sound checks have been done?

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Yes, all the witnesses and members have done their sound tests.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Rhéal Fortin Bloc Rivière-du-Nord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can leave now. My job is done.

3:45 p.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

3:45 p.m.

LaSalle—Émard—Verdun Québec

Liberal

David Lametti LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, as well, Mr. Fortin, for checking to make sure the proceedings flow smoothly.

First, I would like to acknowledge that we are on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I want to thank Matthew Taylor, who is with me today.

I appreciate this opportunity to speak to the bail system in Canada and potential reforms to the system. I realize that it's an important issue and that Canadians are concerned. Ensuring that the laws are fair and effective, and keep Canadians safe while respecting the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is, of course, a priority for our government.

First, I would like to express my condolences to the families of Constable Greg Pierzchala, Michael Finlay and Katie Nguyen Ngo, and to all the victims of the disturbing incidents of violence across the country that we have seen in recent months. Each of these incidents has been a personal tragedy and a blow to our communities.

I'm pleased to see this committee undertaking a review of all aspects of bail in Canada. Canadians deserve to be and deserve to feel safe. We all have a role to play in protecting our communities.

I believe our bail system is strong and sound, but we are always open to suggestions for improvements, both in terms of law reform and ways in which we might better support the administration of justice and our police officers. The provinces have a key role to play in this issue. We have already seen British Columbia step up, and I am encouraged to see that Ontario and Manitoba are also taking steps to improve their systems.

I am looking forward to meeting with Minister Mendicino and with our provincial and territorial counterparts this Friday to discuss bail reform and how we can all work together, collaboratively, to make Canadians feel safe. I plan to present what we are considering at the federal level, and I hope to hear from my counterparts what they intend to do in their spaces.

In terms of the federal role, I want to reassure Canadians and emphasize that the law already tells us that, if individuals pose a significant threat to public safety, they should not be released on bail. There are no quick or easy solutions. That is why, at my direction, we began working on this issue months ago, again in collaboration with our provincial and territorial counterparts, to find solutions that will ensure the long-term safety of our communities.

It's important to note that there's a data gap that risks clouding the issue. On the one hand, we've heard the opposition cite data that crime is up, particularly from people released on bail. On the other hand, data from the Toronto police shows that between 2019-21, there was a decrease, both in the percentage of individuals granted bail and in the number of people rearrested while on bail.

Our government is always looking for ways to improve public safety and the efficiency of our justice system, so I feel it necessary to correct the considerable misinformation that has been put out regarding former Bill C‑75.

An act to amend the Criminal Code, the Youth Criminal Justice Act and other acts and to make consequential amendments to other acts, which emerged from Bill C‑75, is the product of lengthy and extensive co‑operation with the provinces and territories.

It codified the bail principles set out in binding Supreme Court of Canada rulings. I want to reiterate that the legislation did not make any fundamental changes to the bail system. It did not change the criteria under which an accused can be released by the court or the basic rules of the system. On the contrary, it created a reverse onus provision, making it harder for offenders to be granted bail when charged with certain offences, including intimate partner violence.

The claim that the recent tragic incidents we've seen in Canada are due to the statute arising from Bill C‑75 is just plain false. The issue is a lot more complex than can be addressed in a single piece of legislation, and to say otherwise is overly simplistic.

Our government's thoughtful examination of the bail system is ongoing, and we continue to work co‑operatively towards solutions that will protect our communities.

One measure that we are contemplating, which aligns with the request in the letter from the premiers, is to establish a reverse onus for additional offences. A reverse onus means that the accused will be denied bail unless they can prove to the court that their release would not pose a significant risk to public safety or undermine the public's confidence. This work is well under way.

I also want to note that there is already a reverse onus on a number of firearms offences, including where an accused who is subject to a weapons prohibition is charged with a firearms offence. However, it is worth considering carefully whether circumstances in which we impose a reverse onus should be expanded. I look forward to discussing this further with the provinces and territories later this week.

We've also heard calls from law enforcement for reform. I was pleased to have met with chiefs of police from across the country in February. I'm grateful for their recommendations based on their frontline experience.

Work is under way to develop legislative and non-legislative options to address the particular challenges of repeat violent offenders. I will also be raising these ideas with my colleagues on Friday.

We know that it will take more than a legislative reform to completely fix this problem.

Police need the necessary resources to monitor offenders who are out on bail and to arrest those who breach their release conditions. We have already provided significant funding and we are open to providing more where needed.

Also necessary are supports and services for mental health and addictions treatment. A social safety net is needed. The previous government cut social programs, and now we are seeing the very real and serious consequences of those cuts. Our government has made unprecedented investments in mental health, including $5 billion for the provinces and territories to increase access to care.

I commend our partners in British Columbia for the action they took on bail in November as part of their safer communities action plan, and in Manitoba for funding new prosectors to focus on serious firearms offences and violent crime.

I encourage all provinces to use the many existing tools at their disposal to ensure that bail laws are applied safely, fairly and effectively. I've already connected with a number of my counterparts on this issue, as well as with leadership from national indigenous organizations. I look forward to our continued discussions and collaboration.

Addressing the particular challenges posed by repeat violent offenders requires a comprehensive approach that crosses jurisdictions and levels of government. We will be acting at the federal level, and I hope that my provincial counterparts will be willing to do the same. The only way to solve this problem is by working together.

I'm hopeful that together we can build on months of joint work by federal and provincial officials and agree on a comprehensive plan forward.

We know there is no easy solution to such a complex problem. We strongly believe that we need to protect Canadians.

At the same time, we must ensure that any measures taken will not exacerbate the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples, Black or racialized Canadians in our jails. We must not further marginalize vulnerable people, including those struggling with mental health issues and addiction. It's a delicate balance, but one the government is committed to getting right.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go to our first round of questions. We will begin with Mr. Moore for six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Taylor, for being here with us for this important study.

Minister, before I begin on bail, quickly, when you were here three weeks ago, my colleague Mr. Brock asked you about the very important matter of a charter statement on Bill C-39, which deals with your government offering medical assistance in dying to individuals who are suffering from mental illness.

Do you have that charter statement completed yet? At the time you said we would have it very soon.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Gary Anandasangaree Liberal Scarborough—Rouge Park, ON

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I think the issue of relevance is important here. The minister is here to talk about bail reform. He will be back at a later time to discuss any other matters pertaining to his portfolio.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

I will ask Mr. Moore to direct his questions to pertain to bail reform and trial.

Although you do have some liberty within that, try to stay—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Thank you, Chair. This is the first time the minister's been back since that last statement. The minister can handle himself. He's an experienced parliamentarian. That's my only question on that matter.

Minister, is the charter analysis completed on Bill C-39?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I'm not sure what happened there. I'll come back to you on that, Mr. Moore.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Okay. It's important.

Minister, I want to make sure that we're on the same page. I know that at times we're going to disagree on the right approach.

On the issue around bail and some of the entirely preventable tragedies that have occurred by repeat offenders who are inappropriately out on bail, you have said that Canadians deserve to feel safe. My concern is that I think Canadians deserve more than that. They deserve to be safe to the greatest extent possible.

Do you agree with me that Canadians deserve not just to feel safe but, in this country, to be safe?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Certainly, I've been saying publicly—I've just said it now—that Canadians deserve to be safe.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

You said that they should feel safe.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

No, I said both. I can requote myself if you want, Mr. Moore.

I've said that they deserve to be safe and to feel safe. Measures that we are taking and that we have taken do their very best to ensure that. I have committed to working with the provinces and with all of you around this table to bring any necessary changes to the federal part of the bail regime in order for Canadians be safe and feel safe.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Minister, on that, we hear your government and you in question period on this matter talk about the provincial role. The provinces though.... We need to make sure that Canadians are under no illusion. The Criminal Code is the determinant on the law surrounding bail in this country. All 13 premiers—this is rare—have unanimously called on the Prime Minister to take urgent action to make meaningful changes to the Criminal Code to fix the current bail system, particularly concerning firearms offences.

My concern is that, when we say that we all have a role to play, I think the big role here is your government's and its willingness to say that some offenders, for the protection of Canadian society, need to be behind bars and not out reoffending while they're awaiting their trial. The case of Constable Pierzchala was a preventable tragedy.

Are you listening to what the 13 premiers have to say when they say that your government needs to fix the Criminal Code?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

We're most definitely listening. Criminal Code changes are one option, Mr. Moore, as you know. As you know, there are a number of reverse onus offences already within the Criminal Code, including for a number of firearm offences. We've certainly heard the suggestion that we try to focus on repeat offenders. I'm open to suggestions on repeat violent offenders, as I've said in my remarks.

It is highly oversimplifying to say that it is simply changes to the Criminal Code that will solve this problem. There is a challenge in working with the provinces and police forces in the administration of the bail system as well. We are open to working with our provincial and territorial counterparts, as well as police forces across Canada, to make sure that we do a better job there too. Those areas largely fall within provincial jurisdiction. The point here is that we have to work together.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Moore Conservative Fundy Royal, NB

Minister, in 2019 you described the bail reform bill, Bill C-75 as “an outstanding piece of legislation that goes a long way toward improving the efficiency, fairness and speed...of our criminal justice system.”

You mentioned some of the stats. If we believe Statistics Canada—and I do— violent crime was up and gang-related murders were up in that time. In the last five years, Ontario police have seen a 72% increase in cases of serious violence involving accused persons reoffending while on release for a previous serious offence.

Minister, they lay the blame at the feet of your government and Bill C-75, which has made it more difficult to keep individuals and repeat violent offenders behind bars while they're awaiting trial. Do you accept the criticism that's coming unanimously from every premier in this country? They say that the Criminal Code changes that your government brought in had a negative impact on public safety.

4 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

I don't accept that. Bill C-75 basically enshrined a number of Supreme Court of Canada decisions, which were already the law before that came into account. Bill C-75 added additional reverse onuses in the case of intimate partner violence, again helping victims in that regard.

The experts will tell you that the best thing in terms of helping the bail system is to help the overall efficiency of the criminal justice system. The primary function of Bill C-75 was to make the whole criminal justice system more efficient. It hasn't had time to do its work yet. We're still working. We've had a pandemic in the meantime.

It doesn't mean that Bill C-75 can't be improved. That's why we're here now. Fundamentally, it is a good piece of legislation. It made it harder to get bail and didn't change any of the fundamental underlying premises for bail that the Supreme Court had laid out.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you, Mr. Moore.

We'll go to Ms. Diab for six minutes.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Again, welcome to you, Minister, and to Mr. Taylor, as we embark on studying bail reform.

I want to wish you, the public safety minister, and all the provincial and territorial ministers the very best as all of you meet on Friday. I've heard that you are also going to be speaking about what we're dealing with here today.

In terms of my question for you, I agree that in reforming the bail system there are many bodies and actors responsible for that and we all have a role to play. I just want to ask you to reiterate, re-emphasize or reclarify the different bodies and actors responsible for maintaining an effective bail system here in Canada.

4 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you.

That's an important question. Mr. Moore got to part of it, but I'm glad that you have effectively finished the question.

Of course, the federal government has a role in the curation of the Criminal Code and in criminal prosecutions of other federal offences that may not be in the Criminal Code, and certainly we have a role in other certain specified offences in the Criminal Code and the prosecution of all offences in the territories.

Federal Crowns do that, but the provincial and territorial governments are responsible for the administration of justice in the Canadian system, so the vast majority of criminal cases are dealt with by provincial Crowns and dealt with in provincial court systems. The provinces have, as well, the administration of the superior court system. There's a great deal of work that is done by the provinces.

Of course, the police have a role, because the police initially arrest and detain. An officer has discretion to detain. Again, public safety is the primary criteria there—flight risk, public safety and, as you know, making sure that everyone feels safe. If the police do detain, then it's a judge or a justice of the peace who will hear the bail hearing on more formal grounds.

There is a large role that a number of different actors play and, of course, police have to enforce the bail provisions and conditions once they're put into place. If there's a breach in those conditions, then of course the police come back into play again.

There is a great deal of work that needs to be done collectively, working together. The position that I have taken, along with Minister Mendicino and our government, is that we all have to work together to make the system work better at all levels—again, in order for Canadians to feel safe and in order for Canadians to be safe.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Lena Metlege Diab Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you for that, Minister.

You also spoke about a number of initiatives the provinces are taking.

In November, British Columbia told Crown prosecutors to begin asking judges to refuse bail for repeat violent offenders awaiting trial on new violence or gun-related charges. Can you tell us if any other provinces or territories have implemented the same policies?

As well, in your opinion, when you meet on Friday with the provincial and territorial ministers, what would you be telling them? What can provinces and territories do further to complement the federal government's action on bail?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Thank you. That's a great question.

I will be there primarily in listening mode. I've had some interaction with my provincial counterparts already, but certainly we want to hear what they think. British Columbia has taken an initiative with respect to repeat offenders. That's critically important. That's something they've raised from the beginning, going well back to October of 2022. They are focusing on repeat offenders within the bail system. That's something we can certainly take on. I mentioned Manitoba moving ahead with additional prosecutors, particularly for violent crime and weapons-related crime in their bail system. I know that Ontario is thinking of measures. I don't have all the details yet. Hopefully, we will get all of that.

One of the main things we need is better data. Certainly, something that I've spoken to my provincial counterparts about already is getting better data, particularly from police and from courts, to the extent that it's possible, in order to get a more accurate picture. Right now we have competing data. They don't always go in the same direction. It will help us on a policy level to get better data.

After that, working with the provinces, we also need to coordinate efforts. If in fact it's repeat offenders, if that's a place where we can make some changes to the federal Criminal Code to specify.... I don't know whether it's a reverse onus or whether it's additional restrictions; we'll see. We're open to any good-faith idea here with respect to repeat offenders. As I said, a number of weapons offences are already covered by reverse-onus provisions. Are there other things that we might consider there? We'll see, but we'll work with the provinces and build on their experiences on the ground in the administration of justice.