Justice Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Right, but when it comes to serious offences, we can agree that since Bill C-75 and in the last five or six years—seven or eight years, really—more people are getting out on bail for serious offences.

Would you agree with that?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

There are contrary statistics. Toronto's police statistics from 2019 to 2021 are, I think, pretty accurate.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Okay, you did cite those. They're accurate, but there was also a pandemic at that point, Minister. Jails were overcrowded and people were worried about getting COVID in jails. We have to compare apples to apples here. If we're talking about a pandemic, that's a lot different.

Have any police officers told you it is easier to keep violent criminals detained? Has any police officer told you that in the last few years?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, there are countervailing statistics and countervailing narratives—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not talking about statistics, Minister.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I have mentioned that I think an important priority is that we get better data. We're working with the provinces to get better data.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm asking about what's happening on the street. If you want to know what's happening, you ask the people who are impacted.

Are the police officers on the street telling you, the Minister of Justice, that it is now harder to get bail than it was five years ago?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I expect to hear a certain narrative from police officers, who do their jobs very well. There are other actors in the system who also give a countervailing narrative.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, I'm not asking you about narratives. I'm asking you what police officers are telling you.

Are the people who put their lives on the line every day to keep us safe not telling you that it is too easy? People are getting bail who should be detained. Are they not telling you that?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We are listening to the police leadership across Canada. They have recommended a number of options.

They've also recommended some things—reverse onuses—that are already in the Criminal Code. We're very much listening, and we're working collaboratively to get to a solution.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Minister, here's the problem. Constable Pierzchala was killed on December 27. Before that, for months in the House of Commons, it was raised day after day that catch and release wasn't working. Then you come to the committee today and say that you're working on this.

I put together Bill C-313 in about two weeks after that. You have an army of lawyers behind you and policy advisers, yet you still haven't acted. I find that disheartening.

When it comes to Bill C-313, Minister, I know that you said you were prepared to work with me. Just for the record, I haven't received my invitation. Are you prepared to provide an invitation to opposition parties to work with you on this point?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Yes.

Let me answer the other part of your question, since you raised it. It is categorically wrong to say we have not been working on this. Since October, at the deputy minister level, we have been working with the provinces and territories on bail reform to look at what we might do.

Yes, Constable Pierzchala's death was a tragedy. It was a tragedy particularly because the offender was out on a bench warrant, so he had breached—

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

He was out on a bench warrant after a bail review. Let's not split hairs here. He was released by a judge.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Will you let me answer the question?

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Well, no, we have to talk with facts.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Yes, there were a number of different hearings. He did materially breach the last order that he had, and it's sad that this tragedy happened.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It's more than sad.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

It is categorically wrong, Mr. Caputo, to say that we have not been working on it. We have been working on it. We have been working on it with the provinces and territories. In fact, we're going to meet on Friday.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I have 30 seconds left, Minister. I will ask you this: When was the last time you personally sat in bail court to watch bail hearings take place, so you could see what was happening on the ground?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

That's an irrelevant question.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No, it is completely relevant, Minister.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I currently have a role as a member of Parliament, as the Minister of Justice and as Attorney General. I have a number of different things that I have to do. I rely on the expertise of people within my department.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You're the Minister of Justice. You should be watching for yourself, sir.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I am watching very carefully, Mr. Caputo.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

We now go to Madame Brière for five minutes.