Justice Committee on March 6th, 2023

[Chief Robert A. Davis]

I believe it would, because right now society knows we can't be babysitters and we can't be everywhere at once. We have other competing demands that require us to respond.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Great. Thanks very much.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

In the interest of time, we're going to condense the round a little bit. It will be Mr. Van Popta next, and these will be two- to three-minute rounds, if that's okay.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

Chief Davis, Chief Montour and Chief Superintendent Lecky, we really appreciate the work that you and your colleagues are doing. Frontline work can be very dangerous. I'm thinking of Shaelyn Yang from the RCMP in Burnaby, which is close to where I live. I didn't know her personally, but I know of people who knew her or who trained with her, so it hits close to home.

Chief Davis, in your testimony you told us what it's like for police officers and people on the front line—about how dangerous and how demoralizing that work can be. However, you were quoted as saying—I think it was one of the local newspapers—that it's not the judges' fault; they're simply applying the Gladue rules.

Now I refer to the McKenzie case. This is the person who is now accused of murdering Pierzchala. The judge said, “I am confident the public would conclude that the current strict plan of house arrest, supervised by the accused's mother, with independent monitoring and counselling is a reasonable restraint on the accused's liberty until trial.”

Clearly, in retrospect, that was a bad decision, but was the problem with the Gladue principles or with the way the judge applied those principles?

[Chief Robert A. Davis]

Respectfully, Chief Montour knows a lot more detail on this. I'm going to pass this over to him first, if you don't mind.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

That's fair enough. Let's go to Chief Montour then.

[Chief Darren Montour]

Thank you, sir.

It's kind of both. I've sat before Justice Arrell in his court before. He's a very competent judge.

As far as the Gladue factors, I know the Supreme Court has made this case law for sentencing, as well as for bail. It's quoted as “Aboriginal offenders” in the code.

I'll refer to my question in my opening statement: If Randall McKenzie was not an indigenous male, would he have been released from custody? I think not, based on his criminal history. He had a robbery with a firearm conviction, where he assaulted the owner of a restaurant in Hagersville, who I know as well. He had other firearms offences. He assaulted a police officer in Hamilton and he committed other crimes involving firearms.

Again, I say that race should not factor into repeat serious offences such as that for those offenders who are committing those crimes.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Van Popta.

Next we'll go to Mr. Zuberi for three minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today. I want to share with you that I was in the military and served in uniform once upon a time, so I respect what you do and the challenges you must be facing on the ground.

I want to pick up on the line of questioning brought up by a colleague from the Bloc around the high levels of indigenous people in incarceration. We talked a little bit about the policing side. We touched upon the administration of justice and judges.

Where are judges at with respect to understanding who indigenous people are and the challenges they are facing, in particular around your domain when it comes to the administration of justice?

[Chief Darren Montour]

To me—and I'm not being detrimental to the justices when I say this—there needs to be more education on their part to understand specifically the community of Six Nations.

There are a couple of judges who sit in Brantford—Justice Edward and Justice Good—who are both of indigenous background and they understand it. I don't get called to the indigenous peoples court that is running in Brantford as much as I used to. I see that as a good thing. It's working.

For more serious offences, like I said earlier, the Gladue factors need to weigh less and public safety needs to be increased. That's our job. As you know from wearing a uniform as well, public safety is paramount. I've always said that. I've always said to Justice Edward—he and I have had some debates in the past—that offenders have the Gladue case law, but what do the indigenous victims have in this community?

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I hear what you're saying around Gladue. I appreciate that generally these types of conversations are with jurists and those who are legally trained, but you do work within the justice system.

My understanding of Gladue is that it's not an automatic given that, just because somebody claims systemic discrimination—be they Black, indigenous or from other backgrounds—that Gladue principles will lead to a lighter sentence. Isn't there some sort of analysis and filter that should be done?

I know lawyers generally probably would dive deeply into this. From your understanding, wouldn't there be some level of analysis to see if it applies?

[Chief Darren Montour]

I know that once a conviction is imposed, the judge will order a Gladue report, where a Gladue writer will meet with the victim, the offender's family and the offender themselves to get the background.

Don't get me wrong. As I stated before, Gladue does work in certain cases. It does. I've seen it. There are people with addictions and mental health issues who have gone through the system and they're allotted time prior to being sentenced where they seek the help they need. It works.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I just wanted to ask if there would be some level of analysis—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Zuberi. That concludes our round.

I want to thank the witnesses. All of you are in law enforcement and first responders. We really admire your service and we take it very seriously. Thank you very much.

I have a bit of housekeeping for members. I think the travel budget we submitted regarding the trip has been given to everyone. I see a nice smile from Mr. Garrison and I'm always appreciative of that. I just want to see if you're okay with that.

The second one was the budget for the study on the bail system. It's the proposed budget for the study. Can I see some heads nodding to show we're okay with this? Thank you.

Thank you. We'll see you on Wednesday, I believe.

We're adjourned.