Justice Committee on March 8th, 2023

[Emilie Coyle]

Yes, that still happens. It goes back to an earlier question around how many people we are seeing enter the system due to mental health disability or substance use, which are connected, undeniably, in the work we do. Social science will tell us that there's a reason people with trauma and mental health disabilities use substances, which is that we don't have the resources to support them in their wellness journeys. They are trying to deal with their pain in the only way they can.

Onerous conditions of release continue to be an issue as [Technical difficulty—Editor]—

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Now you're having some technical difficulty.

[Emilie Coyle]

—the overwhelming number of [Inaudible—Editor] defence counsel who works with our....

Oh, I apologize. Did you hear me?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

It's good. It caught up, so you're good.

[Emilie Coyle]

I apologize. You would think that in New York the Internet would be good, but apparently not.

I was just saying that one of the defence counsels who works with one of our Elizabeth Fry Societies was saying that sometimes people are waiting up to two weeks in order to have a bail hearing. I think that is unacceptable. It's something that disrupts people's lives, sometimes irreparably.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

Next we will go to five-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Caputo.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

Out of an abundance of transparency, my wife and Ms. Coyle work for the same organization, so I'll try not to fire any difficult questions there.

I want to pick up on something. I think we can all agree, and I'll just ask somebody to say yes. Somebody has a constitutional right to go before a judge within 24 hours.

Professor Myers, would you agree with that?

[Dr. Nicole Meyers]

Yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

If we're talking about somebody waiting for two weeks for a bail hearing, that's not typically on the prosecutor. A prosecutor can typically get a three-day remand, but beyond that, that's a defence delay, generally, if they're waiting for two weeks. I don't know how that could possibly happen otherwise. Can you envision a scenario in which that's on the court or the Crown?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

Yes, it is on the court and the Crown. Many of these adjournments are being requested for the purposes of getting defence counsel. That's mostly because people want to secure a consent release, understandably, rather than going to a show cause hearing.

The Crown's the driver of the decision-making process in bail, mandating that individuals need to have a surety or a bail program, or that there are a variety of conditions that they need to meet. Often, these adjournments are happening to enable individuals either to secure legal counsel to represent them at the hearing, or to try to put together the kind of bail plan that is going to meet what the Crown is seeking.

Study over study indicates that most of the adjournments are coming from the defence for the accused. The reasons for those adjournments are to meet the demands that the Crown is putting forward.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's only problematic if the demands of the Crown are unreasonable. Would you agree with that?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

Yes, I would agree.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

If we have a properly functioning system, a number of the issues that are highlighted aren't as problematic.

We can all agree, and I think all the witnesses would agree, that public safety is paramount. Can we all agree that's the number one issue? I hope so. I hope we can.

We also have this idea—and some of the witnesses today have highlighted it—that we're talking about different calibers of people who fill the courtroom. There are people who, in my experience, do not belong in court. They walk through those doors. They may have made a mistake. They may have made a few mistakes, but court is not home for them.

Do you get what I mean by that? It's not a friendly environment. Do you understand that?

I'll look to you, Professor, because you're here.

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

Yes, I think we can agree.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Certainly.

In a town like my hometown of Kamloops, which is a city of about 100,000 people, most of the time, we can agree, particularly when it comes to violent crime, there is a very small group of people who disproportionately commit a number of the offences.

Would you agree with that as well, Professor?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

I believe that's what the empirical evidence demonstrates, yes.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Certainly.

If we accept that conclusion, we have to target bail at that small group of people. Is that a fair assumption?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

That would be a reasonable way to go forward.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Where I think a number of people will probably part company on this thought is where that dangerous group comes in.

Would you agree with that?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

Yes. It's very difficult to identify who those people are with accuracy.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

It's difficult to identify with accuracy, but there are some objective indicators. You look at people—and I think you would probably agree with this as well—and the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. However, it's not a 100% predictor, and you will never get a 100% predictor.

Is that accurate?

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

It is. It depends on our comfort level with getting it wrong and incarcerating people who should not be incarcerated.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Or our comfort level with getting it wrong and potentially grievously harming somebody else. That's the flip side. If you have a dangerous firearms offender and you get it wrong on the release end, the consequence could be that somebody's shot.

It's not just a matter of getting it wrong on the one side and somebody's in custody. There's also a flip side of getting it wrong and somebody's harmed.

[Dr. Nicole Myers]

Absolutely. That can also happen after they've been convicted and sentenced.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

That's 100%, but after the conviction and sentence, there is no ability for the state to control.

Do you see what I mean?