Justice Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Bronwyn Eyre]

Yes. As I've said, I think for both the premiers in the letter they penned and the justice ministers in treaty to their federal counterparts, it really was around repeat violent offenders, repeat violent offences with weapons and against the person, and, in particular, where there has been a release on bail in those circumstances. Those are of perhaps foremost attention. I think that is a fair characterization. That was probably the leading concern leading up to the letter and post the letter.

[Frank Caputo, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you for your time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Caputo.

Ms. Diab, you have six minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all our witnesses.

Let me start off with you, Minister.

First of all, congratulations on being Minister of Justice and Attorney General. It's a role I occupied once. Good luck as well.

You were in attendance at the FPT meeting, as you mentioned, 10 days ago. You talked about collaboration. I have a question for you on data. You had some data here for us today. Can you tell us how data is collected in Saskatchewan? Where can we find this information? Can you make it available to us?

[Bronwyn Eyre]

Yes, absolutely. The data I referenced was from Statistics Canada in 2021, and then I went on to cite the incidents of bail violations. I'm happy to provide that, by all means.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's great. We appreciate that. It would be helpful, I think, for the committee.

Can you also tell us what steps Saskatchewan is taking to improve the bail enforcement?

[Bronwyn Eyre]

Since the FPT two weeks ago, we've released an updated provincial bail policy. That builds on existing practice. It builds on existing policies that Crown prosecutors must, of course, already consider—where public safety is at risk, including high-risk offences and those involving intimate partner violence, children, vulnerable adults and so on—and, of course, while respecting prosecutorial discretion above all. I have also requested, and B.C. did something similar in November, that the new policy explicitly emphasize that, where any of the conditions for refusing bail are met, prosecutors should advocate for the detention of repeat violent offenders, in particular, awaiting trial. That's one area we have built on.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

Let me move to Ms. Latimer, since she is here. Welcome to the room with us.

Based on your experience and on your organization's experience, can you describe the national landscape of bail and pretrial detention and the trends you have seen in recent decades?

[Catherine Latimer]

I think the proportion of prisoners who are held in pretrial detention is actually increasing in Canada. It tends to be a reflection of the marginalized people in Canada who are more likely to be detained in custody. It's people who are homeless or suffering from mental health problems. They may have addiction issues. They don't have strong community and family supports. They're the ones who have difficulty getting released into the community on bail supervision.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Here's a question for you and probably for others.

If you were in our position, how would you talk to your constituents who feel that bail is too lenient right now in Canada and are concerned about public safety?

[Catherine Latimer]

I think all of us would acknowledge that those who are in an active violent crime cycle and are charged with an offence need to be constrained in order to protect the public, but for a lot of people—I would say the majority of people—who are finding themselves in custody prior to their trial, the risks they pose in the community for flight or for committing another offence can be managed with community-based programming, which is a lot less expensive and a lot more effective over the long run in terms of reducing long-term risk to public safety.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Professor Rogin, can I ask you that same question?

[Prof. Jillian Rogin]

Could you repeat the question?

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

If you were a member of Parliament and sitting in our position here today, how would you talk to your constituents who are concerned that the bail system is too lenient in this country?

[Prof. Jillian Rogin]

I think I would respond by saying that the bail system actually causes harm and causes violence. Anyone who is concerned about violent crime needs to really think about what we need to do in order to prevent it, and there's just no evidence that says putting people in jail and warehousing people in deplorable conditions prevent harm from occurring. It's just not based on any kind of research or data. The data says the opposite. What we need to be doing is investing in the solutions that actually have been shown to minimize violent behaviour.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Can you describe, in your opinion, what Bill C-75 did and the impact on the bail system?

[Prof. Jillian Rogin]

I think that we don't know yet. I don't think that we have any.... Bill C-75 is in the last number of years, and we really don't have much of an understanding of how it has operated. We know that there are certain aspects that I don't think are being made use of. Judicial referral hearings, for example, are not being made proper use of.

We don't know the impact of section 493.2 yet. The jurisprudence is still developing. It's very early to be considering further bail reform when a massive reform in Bill C-75 has just occurred not too many years ago.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much.

That's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

We'll next go to Ms. Normandin for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Boulet, I will direct my questions to you. We have to look into reforming the bail system and there are two ways we can look at this.

The first is the legislative perspective. Here, we run the risk of feel-good legislation, which doesn't work even though it may sound reassuring. You seemed to insist that we may already have all the legislative tools needed for a good bail system, but we lack the tools to enforce it. I'd like to hear your comments on that.

[Marie-Pier Boulet]

That's exactly right, because section 515(1)(c) of the Criminal Code specifically mentions the public interest. That interest is going to evolve over time, and that will help the courts remain vigilant.

The problem I raised at the end of my speech is that practical experience tells us that no one checks to make sure that conditions of release are met. Take the curfew, for example: It's all well and good to impose one, but if no one is checking that is being met, in my view, we're failing in our duty to identify delinquents or people facing charges who are undermining the intended effects of pre-trial release.

Earlier, I heard statistics on failure to meet conditions. In my opinion, keeping statistics on failure to meet is really getting it wrong. If you don't meet a condition, you are breaking a condition of release. For example, imagine someone forgetting to inform the court of a change of address. That type of statistic overlaps with many offences that aren't even violent. This can often be a problem for people struggling with social housing issues, among others.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Since you're a practising attorney, I'd like to know how your clients feel about not getting a slap on the wrist if they don't meet the conditions imposed on them, because no one will check if they are meeting them. Could that lead to them not caring about conditions?

[Marie-Pier Boulet]

Thankfully, those of us who practice law don't convey that message. I'm sharing this with you today because you're interested, but legal practitioners are not going to spread that message among litigants. Otherwise, it could be a problem if clients knew that. As legal practitioners, we make sure we don't convey that message, even though today I'm doing it indirectly.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

At the end of your opening remarks, you mentioned the fact that there seems to be a difference between supervising someone on bail and supervising someone on a conditional sentence. What works in a conditional sentence case that doesn't work in a bail case? What can we do better?

[Marie-Pier Boulet]

In conditional sentence cases, the person under house arrest is assigned to an official probation officer and subject to a concrete supervision plan. The probation officer takes charge of the inmate, a term they continue to use even if the person is serving their sentence at home.

Where the police are concerned, it goes back to other comments about communication. Once the inmate is released, no one is assigned the file for supervision, not even the investigator in charge of the file. Therefore, there is no concrete plan to guarantee that conditions are fully met.