Justice Committee on March 20th, 2023

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the success of supervision plans in bail cases. Are there as many problems with conditions being met? Are these plans more successful in conditional sentence cases than bail cases?

[Marie-Pier Boulet]

We talked about this earlier. According to the statistics, conditions are not met in a great number of bail cases. However, it's not even the same order of magnitude in conditional sentence cases. If an inmate with a conditional sentence breaks the conditions imposed on them, they face direct consequences because they lose their house arrest privileges and must serve their sentence in prison.

If someone released on bail doesn't meet the conditions imposed, it should have the same effect and that person should be incarcerated. The burden of proof will be reversed. The system strikes this balance, allowing the burden to be reversed in situations where the person must prove that they pose no risk.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask you the same question I asked Mr. Bytensky earlier: How long does it take to get a bail hearing in Quebec?

[Marie-Pier Boulet]

That's another can of worms. If you open it, you'll see that there are long delays. The law says three days, but if the bail hearing continues for a while, it can go beyond three days.

In my opinion, the government needs to invest in supervision and enforcement right now.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I only have 20 seconds left and you won't have time to answer another question.

Thank you very much, Ms. Boulet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Next, we'll go to Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today.

I want to go to Professor Rogin. Since Bill C-75 was raised by other witnesses, can you talk a bit about why Bill C-75 was necessary in light of Supreme Court decisions in terms of the presumption of innocence?

[Prof. Jillian Rogin]

I think the presumption of innocence, among many other constitutional issues, including the very right to reasonable bail in section 11(e), were at stake.

Prior to Bill C-75, the Supreme Court decisions really didn't introduce any new ideas. They confirmed codified language and existing jurisprudence. It was necessary because issues still persist post Bill C-75 such as delays in bail courts, onerous conditions and excessive overuse of sureties. All of these issues continue to plague us, I think, in our system. That's why Bill C-75 tried to at least send a strong message to justices, justices of the peace, Crowns and all of us that something needed to change.

In many ways, the law isn't followed. The bail laws in the code that are codified are often ignored, in my experience of appearing in the bail courts, blatantly ignored in many ways. We have yet to see whether Bill C-75 has had an impact on that. My understanding from many colleagues is that it hasn't necessarily, as Mr. Bytensky pointed out. I think, in his words, the law from above doesn't necessarily translate into what happens day to day in the bail courts.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

I want to turn to Ms. Latimer.

I know the John Howard Society has extensive experience in running community-supervised bail programs. Can you talk a bit about the impact of those programs both on the offenders or potential offenders and on the communities?

[Catherine Latimer]

The bail supervision and verification programs that are run by the John Howard Society have been very successful in terms of helping people to keep out of dire circumstances, which includes being detained, and to get the support in the communities they need during this period so that they can show up for their trials and participate constructively in the process.

I think what's very important is that, generally, those who are disadvantaged in the current bail system are marginalized people, whether they're economically marginalized, they're struggling with mental health issues or there's some prejudice because of racial discrimination. These kinds of programs actually help, because they take away some of that privilege that those who can afford good counsel and whatnot have in the bail process.

I think they're a great leveller in terms of trying to overcome some of the more negative elements of the bail system, but there aren't enough of them. There needs to be many more such programs.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Of course, it's not up to the John Howard Society to offer them everywhere.

[Catherine Latimer]

No. We're very fortunate when governments choose to do this. I think it's economically to their advantage, as someone pointed out, in terms of the costs of detaining someone in custody. The programs are much less expensive than detaining someone in custody.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Can you talk a little bit about your experience with the impacts on those who are held in custody before trials? We've had several witnesses talk about that, but I know the John Howard Society has intimate experience with the impacts of overdetention on families in the community.

[Catherine Latimer]

It's extremely disruptive for people.

I think there are even greater levels of anxiety and mental health challenges for people prior to a conviction than before, because they don't really know what's happening. Some of them have had little to no exposure to the criminal justice system before. They don't know how to interact with other people who are detained in provincial facilities.

Provincial facilities are known by prisoners as “the buckets”. They're considered to be a very bad place to be detained. There's no programming. If you have an addiction, you're going to be coming off your drugs without much medical help. They're very stressful and difficult places for people to be.

Even if you're there for a short period of time, it's going to disrupt your housing, your employment opportunities and your relationship with your family. It's a very negative experience for people.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

When we talk about that, sometimes I think maybe to members of the public it sounds a bit counterintuitive to say that it will increase public safety if we decrease the detention. Can you connect the dots for those people?

[Catherine Latimer]

I think it is a hard sell. It is counterintuitive, but the evidence is sufficiently clear that, if you are placed in pretrial detention, the likelihood that you're going to be exposed to criminality, lose confidence in yourself and have sufficient social barriers placed in front of you because of that predisposes you to be more inclined to be engaged in criminality than before.

If you can keep people out of pretrial detention, you're going to reduce potential criminality. It's actually a benefit to public safety in the long run.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

With my last seconds, I'll ask the Minister of Justice from Saskatchewan a question.

We've heard from many experts that community-based bail supervision programs are very effective. Are those programs available in Saskatchewan, and if not, are you actively considering implementing them?

[Bronwyn Eyre]

Thank you.

Unfortunately, I'll probably have to go. I have to be back in the House in a few minutes, so if I suddenly disappear, you'll understand why. I apologize for whispering, too. I feel terrible about that. I wasn't on mute.

Before I answer about the programs, to your question, there was of course the Supreme Court case that Bill C-75 codified, and we discussed that at FPT. Of course, Bill C-75 was very broad, so the concern that was raised by ministers across the country was really specifically around the principle of restraint as it impacts repeat violent offenders, offences with weapons and random attacks.

Section 493.1, in codifying that principle of restraint in those cases, made the pendulum swing too far. As I say, we'll have read how the judge grappled with that in the Ontario provincial officer case, where he knew it was iffy based on the repeat violent offending but was sort of bound by 493.1 in that case too.

In terms of programs—

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Minister, we're actually out of time, so I'll ask you one of those yes or no questions.

Are you actively considering community-based bail?

[Bronwyn Eyre]

Yes, absolutely. We have many successful programs.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you.

Next, we'll go to Mr. Van Popta for four minutes.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, I hope I still have you for a couple of minutes. Thank you for being here.

In your testimony, you gave us some details about proposed amendments to the Criminal Code relating to bail provisions. I know that the Province of Saskatchewan is also working on updating provincial bail policy.

Could you tell us a bit about that? We only have a couple of minutes.

[Bronwyn Eyre]

I did make a few comments about that earlier, so I won't repeat myself. In the bail policy, which has now been made public, we state explicitly that it's not only appropriate, but necessary, that Crown counsel, in certain circumstances, take a more stringent approach to bail.

It says, “When a repeat violent offender is charged with an offence against a person or involving a weapon, Crown Counsel must seek that person's detention”—there's very similar language in B.C.—“unless they are satisfied, having regard to all of the circumstances, that the risk to public safety posed by the accused's release can be reduced to an acceptable level by bail conditions”, and so it goes.

It's important to point out that this builds on what is already considered in bail circumstances. The question, as I've said a number of times, is really about that repeat violent offender circumstance. That's really been the focus over the last few months, if not years, in terms of looking at that specifically, in relation to Bill C-75 and sections 493.1 and 493.2.

That's really been the concern. It was pretty united across the country that there was going to be a range of numbers, but overall, since that time, bail violations, as it were, have increased very significantly.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

We've heard from other witnesses that the perceived problem with so many people being incarcerated in pretrial detention is the lack of.... One witness called it a culture of adjournment. He pointed to a lack of resources in the court system.

Could you comment on that? What is the experience of Saskatchewan?