Evidence of meeting #55 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Taylor  General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Talal Dakalbab  Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Crime Prevention Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Superintendent Sue Efford  Director General, National Criminal Operations, Contract and Indigenous Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Normandin.

Now we have Mr. Garrison for six minutes.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much to the minister for being here today.

We've had a lot of discussion about fine-tuning the bail system, I would call it, to better ensure public safety from those who are repeat violent offenders. One of the suggestions that have come forward from the premiers is using the reverse bail onus in additional cases when it comes to firearms. There is specifically one that seems surprising to me, and that is that currently, possession of a prohibited handgun is not a reverse-onus offence for bail.

Is this the kind of thing the government is talking about when it's talking about working with the premiers on this question?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It is, Mr. Garrison.

I will tell you that the question of reverse onus, which is a legal threshold, in many cases is borne by the state, especially where the offences are not as serious and where violence is not implicated. In some cases, though, where there is violence and where the offence is serious, the onus does shift to the accused to, in the words of the Criminal Code, “show cause” as to why they should be entitled to reasonable bail.

We are examining that, among other potential areas, to be sure that we've got the system finely tuned to the challenges that are on the ground right now when it comes to serious violent offenders, as well as repeat offenders.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

A second thing we've heard here, I guess in order to increase public trust in the bail system, is that there needs to be better supervision of bail, especially when there are conditions, and also that, in order to make sure we're not unduly detaining people who should be out, we need better systems for making sure more people can get bail.

You're the minister for the RCMP, and the RCMP is responsible for policing in a large part of the country. My question is: Do you think the RCMP has the resources it needs to police bail conditions? In my riding, I don't see that.

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Garrison, I appreciate your highlighting the commitment of the RCMP to providing public safety across the country. For the benefit of the members of the committee, they cover, geographically, roughly 75% of all the territory in Canada and about 25% or 27% of the population, so it is not an insignificant amount of work.

We're grateful to the RCMP for their dedication on the ground, but it does pose challenges. I would submit to you, in particular in rural areas, where there are large stretches and distances between communities, that it's not easy work, but we endeavour to get them all the resources and tools they need.

Year after year the government makes investments. You've already heard me make reference to the anti-guns and gang violence fund. We also are the primary funder of the RCMP in all those jurisdictions where they are the police of jurisdiction, as opposed to through some of the contractual service agreements that we reach with provinces and territories.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

We've also heard, though, that community-based bail supervision programs quite often are more effective, more successful, than relying on police, whether it's the RCMP or another police force.

Do you see any role for the federal government in helping to increase the availability of community-based bail supervision programs?

5:25 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It's an important point to raise. In my experience, any successful plan for reintegration has to involve the community itself. For individuals, that begins with the network of those who are closest to them, so in some cases family, in other cases protectorates and guardians and others who are loved ones, who have taken an interest in the reintegration of the individual who has been charged.

Ensuring that there is accountability when those conditions are not followed is one of the reasons we are having the conversation we are having right now with our provincial and territorial partners, and it is why, I assume, this committee is undertaking this study. That's why it is important that, even as we look at the community, we also take a look at our laws, to be sure they are finely tuned to the challenges we have on the ground.

5:30 p.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC

I think you're right, but one of the challenges we face is that those who are most marginalized often lack those very resources you're talking about in terms of family and community to support them in getting bail and to help make sure they can meet bail conditions.

That's why I've been talking a lot about community-based bail supervision programs. We end with a lot of marginalized people spending a long time in detention because they don't have the resources personally and in their family to be able to be released on bail.

I guess what happens is—and I'm not accusing you of this personally—that the federal government tends to say it's a provincial responsibility to provide that, but in fact, when it's not provided, then the RCMP ends up with these additional challenges of enforcing bail supervision.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would say three things in response, which I think speak directly to the point that you're raising.

The federal government is investing in communities to promote the successful reintegration of those who have been charged and those who have been convicted and are being reintegrated into the communities through, one, the $250-million building safer communities fund; two, the national crime prevention strategy fund; and three, the indigenous community corrections initiative, which just yesterday we announced additional funding for and which focuses on promoting indigenous language, culture and history for indigenous inmates who are looking to anchor their reintegration based on their own identity and cultures.

By doing those three things, we are putting community at the centre of our reintegration efforts.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai

Thank you.

We will next go to Mr. Brock for five minutes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here at justice.

Good afternoon to the remaining witnesses. I mean no disrespect, but we're going to save the questions for you for the second hour. We have to utilize our time appropriately with the minister.

Minister, I want to go back into your past. I understand that you are a former federal prosecutor, and you worked for the Public Prosecution Service of Canada. Is that correct?

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Yes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Part of that prosecution responsibility included prosecuting individuals charged under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

5:30 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Yes.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

That would include individuals charged with the trafficking of drugs or possession for the purposes of trafficking, as well as simple possession. Is that correct?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

It included production offences as well. Yes.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

As a lawyer and as a prosecutor, you would also agree with me, I hope, that many of the individuals you have prosecuted and many individuals I have prosecuted have similar criminogenic factors. These quite often include addictions—whether that be alcohol or drugs—or mental health.

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would agree that in some of the cases I dealt with there were individuals who had challenges around substance and mental health issues. Yes.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

A lot of individuals I saw—maybe that you didn't see—certainly had that as a predominant criminogenic factor, as well as lack of education, lack of supports, lack of housing and lack of a job, etc.

Would you agree with me, sir, that it's crucially important that after they are sentenced, discharged or whatever the circumstance may be, these individuals get help to lead a productive lifestyle?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Brock, I would go one step further than what your question suggests, which is to say that where possible, we should be off-ramping those individuals from the criminal justice system at the earliest point in the system.

As you yourself underlined, in a lot of those cases the determinants that have led to their intersection with the criminal justice system are based on a lack of access to safe or affordable housing, education, health care, etc. Off-ramping them, the earlier the better, lets us focus on violent offenders.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Right.

You would agree with me, though, that if we can't off-ramp and we have to sentence these individuals and place them on probation or send them to institutions, we want to ensure that there are supports, either in the community or in our institutions, to help them address those issues.

Would you agree with that?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

I would agree with that.

March 22nd, 2023 / 5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

Which really begs the question.... It is really ironic that today my Conservative colleague, Tracy Gray, from the riding of Kelowna—Lake Country, had a private member's bill introduced into the House with a vote. Bill C-283 is an act to amend the Criminal Code and the Corrections and Conditional Release Act to provide additional addiction treatment in penitentiaries. It's specifically to allow judges to make recommendations after sentencing that the person serve their sentence in a penitentiary that has been designated as an addictions treatment facility.

Minister, this is a question for you, for Canadians who are following this committee. Why did you, as a minister who has a portfolio that includes the Correctional Service, and your entire Liberal caucus vote that down?

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

Marco Mendicino Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

In short, it was for two reasons.

First, we believe there is already the discretion within the judiciary to make those orders. I'm in no way dismissing the merit of them. I think it is right to point out that there should be conditions that foreshadow the ultimate release of individuals who may have mental health and substance challenges and, therefore... Certainly, I have seen in my experience judges who fashion orders that foreshadow the kind of mental health and public health treatment that those offenders need to reintegrate.

Secondly, I would say there are other initiatives, which this government is investing in, to promote that kind of reintegration for individuals who may be suffering from those challenges as well.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON

You also took credit, I understand, Minister, for the federal framework to reduce recidivism. You mentioned that during either the opening statement or a response to a question.

You will acknowledge on the record, sir, that the private member's bill of my Conservative colleague, Richard Bragdon, Bill C-228, which was passed into law in 2021, did exactly that.

Would you give him credit, sir?