Justice Committee on March 22nd, 2023

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I think we need to be working across partisan lines as much as possible. There are private members' bills that the government has seen fit to support, regardless of partisan stripe. I don't think any one individual—or any party, for that matter—has a monopoly on how we keep our communities safe.

One of the reasons it's important for me to be here in front of this committee is not only to take questions but also to take advice, which then, in turn, may shape future government policy. That includes the matter of bail reform and the bail system.

I would say that one of the things I found most encouraging at the last federal-provincial-territorial was that there was a strong consensus that, yes, we should look at the bail system. That was true no matter which government was sitting within which party. There is a multipartisan effort here to get this right.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Brock.

Next we'll go to Ms. Diab for five minutes.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thanks, Chair.

Minister, welcome.

Welcome to our witnesses.

As we've been discussing in the committee, and, of course, as we know, social factors play a significant role in leading individuals to engage in crime and violence.

I want to thank you again for coming to my province earlier this month, where you announced funding to the Halifax Regional Municipality to support local projects aimed at young people involved in gangs and at risk of joining them, so we can set them up for better success. Of course, in your opening, you mentioned the 902 Man Up Black empowerment initiatives. We know how important it is to work with community groups that have local grassroots expertise.

There is no policing-exclusive solution, as we know, to violent crime. This is one way you're addressing that. Can you mention how else government is addressing...? Again, I've mentioned those, but I'm sure you have many other examples.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

First, thank you again, Ms. Diab, for welcoming me into your community. It's always a pleasure to see you and to meet with your community leaders.

There were two announcements we made there that build upon the investments we are making, both at the border.... We had a chance to go to the port of Halifax terminal to see the direct benefits of the approximately $450 million we're investing in the CBSA.

I would encourage all colleagues to acknowledge and express gratitude to the CBSA for the work they are doing by stopping year after year more and more illegal firearms. That's good, but it's not the only thing we need to be doing. We need to do more than just support law enforcement. We have to look at the root causes of crime, so that we can stop it before it starts. That includes through the announcement we made with 902 Man Up under the national crime prevention funding programs.

This is an organization that started with two individuals, members of the Black community, who were fed up after a spate of gun violence, who had seen too much bloodshed and who said, “Enough is enough. That's it. C'est assez.” They started this organization. We've given them some additional support so they can increase their programming and their reach and invite more people who may be at risk to being exposed to criminal elements into their shelter, into their safe and inclusive space, to give them all the skills they need to make the right choices.

We did the same thing, along with you, our colleague Darren Fisher and the mayor of Halifax, Mike Savage, under the building safer communities fund. Right across Halifax and Dartmouth, we'll also be able to do similar initiatives under that federal initiative.

[Lena Metlege Diab, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

That's great.

Can you also elaborate a little on the discussions you had with your provincial-territorial counterparts earlier this month on bail and what we're talking about here?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

They were very constructive. I think everyone is grasped with the recent tragedies that have befallen communities right across the country. We spent considerable time talking about potential modifications to the bail system under the Criminal Code.

We also devoted some space to talking about the ways we can prevent crime from occurring and prevent violence from occurring. We heard from different jurisdictions about integrated teams, such as police services going out with public health professionals and other supports. If a call comes in related to a substance abuse challenge or other mental health issue, then the appropriate professional is on hand to de-escalate the situation without the need for force.

We talked about how mental health calls have been on the increase and how taking an integrated approach can be a more effective way to streamline resources so that we are really only using the criminal law as a last resort. That is consistent with my own experiences on the front lines of the criminal justice system, and I think it is one of the ways we can reduce the kinds of recidivist, systemic challenges that we've seen, which in turn lead to overrepresentation.

As much as we have to be focused on ensuring that our bail systems work correctly, we also have an obligation to acknowledge that the systemic challenges remain, and that overrepresentation is shockingly high, especially when it comes to Indigenous peoples and racialized Canadians. We have an obligation to reduce those trends and reverse them as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Ms. Diab.

We'll go next to a two-and-a-half-minute round.

Go ahead, Mr. Fortin.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin by thanking my fellow member for standing in for me on Monday and at the beginning of today's meeting. I'm sure that the committee members were none the worse as a result of the switch.

Good evening, Minister. I'm really glad you're here.

The bail rules for accused go back quite a few years. Those rules are assessed on a case-by-case basis. The courts consider each accused's case and make decisions based on those rules. However, you'll probably agree with me that the assessment of those rules has changed over time, according to the circumstances. A case in which an accused would have been remanded 20 years ago may no longer warrant remand today, and vice versa.

That said, as you will recall, it wasn't that long ago when Parliament adopted provisions, through former Bill C‑5, to do away with mandatory minimum sentences in certain circumstances, including for some firearms-related offences. One offence that no longer carries a mandatory minimum sentence always comes to mind, discharging a firearm with intent. Furthermore, conditional sentences now apply to some sexual assault offences, meaning offenders can serve their sentence in the community.

In your view, Minister, does that influence the courts' decisions about whether to hold someone in remand when they are accused of discharging a firearm with intent, for example?

Five years ago, the offence carried a mandatory minimum sentence, which attested to the fact that the crime was fairly serious. Today, the mandatory minimum sentence no longer exists. It's akin to telling the courts that lawmakers consider the offence to be less serious than they did five years ago.

Do you agree with that? What impact do you think that has on interim release?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

That's a complex question. You're right that some principles are well established. At the same time, though, the Supreme Court has made adjustments to certain principles in response to challenges identified on the ground. The constitutional principles still apply, no matter how the law is amended.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I have just a few seconds left, so I'll simply ask you whether former Bill C‑5 impacts interim release decisions or not.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Any amendment brought forward by the government always has to respect the charter, even when it comes to the release system.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You're quite the violin player, Minister.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Fortin.

We'll next go to Mr. Garrison.

I'll give you three minutes to match up.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to where I ran out of time the last time.

Mr. Minister, you talked about various crime reduction and recidivism programs. I'm going to restate the problem I see: The RCMP is the police force of jurisdiction in half my riding, as it is in many other places where there aren't good community bail supervision programs.

You left off by saying there are funding programs. I guess my question is very specific: Would community-based bail supervision program expansions fit within the initiatives you talked about, as possible projects for funding?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'll try to give you the clearest answer I can.

In my mind, “community bail” means a very specific thing. Any bail structured to involve a surety, for example, involves an aspect of community supervision. If somebody is released with certain conditions, and one of those conditions is a surety, that surety has a responsibility to be the custodian and supervisor of that individual while they are out on bail. If there are any conditions breached with the knowledge of the surety, they have an obligation to report, under the terms of the bail.

I think what you are.... I don't want to over-interpret your question.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I'm thinking of the John Howard Society, which, in many places in Ontario, runs those programs, rather than depending on individuals or family members. There's actually somebody who has the trust of the community to enforce those bail supervision programs. It's not the police.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I'm glad you provided that clarification.

Again, I know first-hand that there are bail programs wherein we work with the John Howards, Liz Frys and other organizations to provide that wraparound support. I think the challenge is around sustained supports in areas where the individual offender needs it, and in making sure we balance the treatment and support with the counterbalancing need to protect the community.

That's why this study is important. At times, it can be a very complex balance to strike. You may have somebody who has mental health issues but also poses a very serious threat to the safety and security of the community. In the absence of a type of required support ecosystem, there may be no other choice but to detain that individual.

In the course of detention, it is equally important that we look to provide rehabilitative programming, services and supports. That's why, for example, the indigenous community corrections services program we announced yesterday is one way in which that goal can be accomplished. Admittedly, that is post trial and post conviction. In sentencing.... It is a challenge at the front end of the process.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I know you recognize that most people in pretrial detention are in provincial facilities, which don't provide mental health or addictions services. We've had many cases in which people have served quite long times. They hit not only their first 90-day review but also, sometimes, a second 90-day review. They don't have access to those. I understand the jurisdictional problem there. It's very challenging.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I agree with you, Mr. Garrison. There are definitely challenges in providing reintegration up front. That's why we have to continue to work closely with our provincial and territorial partners.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison. That will conclude our first round.

Minister Mendicino, you are excused.

I'm not going to suspend or anything, because of the time frame. I'll give you a few seconds, then we'll continue onwards.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

All right, we'll resume.

We'll begin the first round of six minutes with Mr. Van Popta.

Mr. Van Popta, the floor is yours.

[Tako Van Popta, Conservative, Langley—Aldergrove, BC]

Good. Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Taylor, I'll start with you.

I believe there is a consensus across Canada now that Canada's bail system needs to be reformed. We have a letter signed by 13 premiers saying that. We heard the minister just a few minutes ago talking very favourably about a federal-provincial meeting that he and Minister Lametti were at, saying that there is good progress being made. That is despite what Mr. Lametti said not too long ago, when he was asked about this. He said that he was open to suggestions for improvements, but he believed our bail system to be strong and sound. That's what he said.

Anyway, today it appears that we have a consensus that something needs to be done. There's been quite a bit of talk about reverse onuses and amending the Criminal Code, but my question is going to focus on work that some provincial governments and attorneys general have done, particularly in my province, British Columbia. We also had the Attorney General of Saskatchewan here the other day talking about that.

I want your opinion on that. What do you think the provinces have done effectively, and what could they do effectively when it comes to bail reform?

[Matthew Taylor, General Counsel and Director, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

Mr. Dakalbab and I were also in attendance at the ministers' meeting and had the good fortune to see the discussions and the consensus that Minister Mendicino has talked about.

If you talk about bail reform in terms of what the provinces and territories can do, I can interpret that in one of two ways.

We received a number of different proposals for Criminal Code reform from the provinces and territories, either through the work we do as officials with our provincial and territorial partners.... I think the last time I appeared before this committee, I talked a bit about that work, which we have been doing for some time.

We heard a number of specific proposals for law reform at the March 10 meeting, which Minister Mendicino spoke to, but we've also heard about non-legislative changes that are needed or that are important to improve the functioning of the bail system.

Mr. Garrison has talked a bit about bail supervision. I think the Attorney General of Saskatchewan talked a bit about some of the work they're doing in their jurisdictions as well in terms of changes to Crown policies around when to argue for bail to be denied versus when bail should be favoured.

It probably doesn't answer your question specifically, but there are a lot of different things that are being talked about as ways to fine-tune or improve upon a good foundation.

I think, by and large, most would agree that for most cases, the bail system is working well. However, where the focus has been—and, as bureaucrats, how we're supporting the government—is on that more targeted area of repeat and violent offending.