Evidence of meeting #56 for Justice and Human Rights in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was system.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:30 p.m.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Mayor Davis has raised this question of the non-violent offences, repeat non-violent offences. What you're saying to us is that the system we have now actually contributes to that repetition rather than helping to solve it.
5:30 p.m.
Partner, Abergel Goldstein & Partners LLP, As an Individual
It does, and perception is something too. When we don't have grown-up conversations that actually deal with the facts and the underlying issues, and we reach to the Criminal Code for quick solutions, the public sees things as bleak and dangerous, when in fact we know from the statistics, especially when it comes to those minor crimes, that we have never been safer.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you, Mr. Garrison.
We'll now go to our second round. In the interests of time, we're going to do them for three minutes, if that's okay.
Mr. Van Popta, you have three minutes.
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here.
Since we have only three minutes, I'm going to focus on Mayor Davis.
Thank you for being here, sir, and for your earlier testimony.
Coming out of the Brantford City Council, there were a couple of motions recently. One was urging the federal government to strengthen the bail system. The other was to do with provincial initiatives. Perhaps you could expand on those.
5:35 p.m.
Mayor, City of Brantford
That's right. It was two-pronged. One was directed to the federal government Department of Justice. In particular, it referenced some of the cases I talked about earlier and asked the federal government to consider changes to section 515, which I spoke about earlier, tightening up some of the rules in respect to sureties and also giving greater consideration to the third ground.
It wasn't focused solely on the federal government. There was also a resolution directed to the provincial government, asking for greater resources to be spent on the judicial system to reduce the delays that can create much of the prejudice and inequities that other commentators have mentioned. It was an encouragement to the provincial government to look at the policy that it gives the Crowns with respect to bail hearings, but, more importantly, to spend more money on the system to improve it.
It went two ways.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tako Van Popta Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you for that.
The person who has been charged with murdering Constable Pierzchala was subject to strict surety supervision requirements, but he just didn't abide by them.
We had Chief Montour of the Six Nations Police Service here. They were responsible for supervision, but he told the committee that they just did not have the resources. Could you comment on that?
5:35 p.m.
Mayor, City of Brantford
Yes. I've talked to Chief Davis about that.
I didn't want to give the impression that I'm not concerned about violent crime. I am, and I certainly support the position that Chief Davis advanced before the committee and the concerns he has. As for those who talk about the reverse onus for those kinds of crimes, I would support that.
As I said, I thought my role here was to talk about something that I don't think has been talked about that much, and to me it's another aspect to this that should be addressed.
5:35 p.m.
Conservative
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
5:35 p.m.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to thank this second panel of witnesses.
Mr. Spratt, thank you for your comments. We could have spent at least six minutes on each of the points you made.
We heard Mr. Davis say that we have not found a balance between public safety and the accused’s right to release. I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
5:35 p.m.
Partner, Abergel Goldstein & Partners LLP, As an Individual
I think we strike a very good balance. That's not to say that the system is perfect. Striving for a perfect bail system has resulted in what we found in Ontario. I saw Mr. Naqvi here. When he was attorney general, he launched a number of studies and found that when we're too risk averse and strive for perfection, we end up detaining people inappropriately. That can lead to, as I've described, some bad consequences.
It's not that the system will ever be perfect. People will breach while on release, but we have to do our best to try to mitigate that. Part of that is making sure the police allocate their resources properly to do compliance checks. Part of that is making sure we have good bail supervision and other programs.
I can assure you that for serious offences, the courts balance—it's a secondary factor—the security and safety of the public. They look at an individual's record. They look at the history of non-compliance. They look at a plan. Sureties are cross-examined. Hard questions are asked. This balancing is done. If it is not done properly, then there's always the ability for the Crown to appeal that.
We have this balance that takes in all those factors, looking at the specifics of the allegations and the specifics of the individual. It's really when you try to strive for perfection, when you look at examples and don't necessarily, in an intellectually honest way.... Look, if the solutions you're proposing had actually affected that particular example that you look at, it's then that we get into problems of really eroding the fundamental purposes of bail and how it interacts with the protections that we have under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you very much. That is very interesting.
You said earlier that pretrial detention increases the risk of recidivism. I would like to hear your thoughts in connection with what you just said.
5:40 p.m.
Partner, Abergel Goldstein & Partners LLP, As an Individual
It's well documented, not only in the context of bail but in the context of sentencing as well. It's not strict bail that is going to stop someone from committing an offence, just as it's not a long sentence that will deter someone from committing an offence. If we think there's that level of precognition and planning if someone has mental health or addiction issues, then we're deluding ourselves. That's borne out in the evidence.
5:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Randeep Sarai
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Brière.
That concludes our panel. I want to thank you guys for attending.
I think that's our last bail meeting, too. We'll be working on it later.
Thank you once again.
The meeting is now adjourned.