Justice Committee on April 17th, 2023

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—but it could, from my reading, include not just non-state actors but also state actors who engage in violations of international law. There is no clear exclusion to say that other states—which, in certain cases, Canada recognizes—couldn't necessarily be considered terrorist organizations.

The legislation puts the onus on humanitarian organizations to determine whether or not they need to apply for this exemption. In a case with a listed terrorist organization controlling a territory like Afghanistan, it's relatively clear-cut that an exemption would be required. There may be cases in which it's not clear whether or not an organization is engaging in terrorist activity according to the Criminal Code, and therefore whether an exemption is required. This legislation could actually create additional problems for organizations that would then be unsure whether or not they would need to apply for an exemption to operate in a particular area when an organization controlling the territory might not be listed. To me, that's a clear problem, and that speaks to the need for clarity around whether we're talking only about listed organizations or about any organization that is defined as terrorist.

What is your response to that, and would you be supportive of providing that clarity in this legislation going forward?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

The short answer is yes.

I realize we're tight on time, but I think you have raised a valid point and I would say two things in response very quickly.

One, I think the flexibility of the terrorist definition is a positive thing in a case in which we're trying to get aid to an area where the de facto authority may not be a terrorist entity but there may be terrorist activity.

I would add to that, secondly, that what you may have characterized as a problem, I see as an opportunity to work with those stakeholders in this space to make sure we can help them navigate that process—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, that answer concerns me more, because the organizations don't benefit from this flexibility. They are left holding the bag, not knowing whether or not they are going to be prosecuted if they proceed in a particular case. They need clarity in law.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

We'll provide them that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis. The time is up.

I'm going to go to the next member.

Mr. Naqvi, you have five minutes.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Minister, welcome, and officials, thank you for being here.

I want to step back a bit, because I think that in this very important and intense conversation it's important to be reminded of some really crucial facts. In my view, one of them is the fact that Afghanistan is a very troubled part of the world. It's a very dangerous part of the world.

I'm sure you will agree that the Taliban regime, which has taken over Afghanistan, is an absolutely brutal organization that is against women and against the LGBTQ community, has very little tolerance of all kinds of minorities, and has acted in the past in terrorism-related activities. They are the ones who are in charge in that country, and they are violating the rights of their own citizens under the government they have in place at this moment.

I'm sure you would agree with my analysis or assessment, Minister, of what's happening in Afghanistan at the moment.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Without question, Mr. Naqvi, and just to add a few statistics that are truly horrifying and I think underline the urgency that has been a consistent theme throughout the interventions today, we are presently looking at 20 million Afghan people who are suffering from acute hunger. In 2023, a total of 28.3 million people, or two-thirds of the population, are in need of humanitarian assistance. That constitutes the need to get aid to 33 out of 34 of the provinces in Afghanistan.

Your question and your comment are very much borne out by the statistics, but behind each and every one of these aggregate statistics there is a human life, and we are trying to save as many of those lives as possible.

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

This is a draconian government that is violating people's rights, and not only is it undermining democracy right now in Afghanistan, which the Afghan people themselves and western countries worked extremely hard to establish, but its actions are also causing significant harm to its own people, as you stated by the data you just shared.

In addition, Minister, if you can share this with us, is Canada in a fairly unique position to declare the Taliban as a terrorist entity or terrorist organization when we look at other peer countries?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I wouldn't say we're in a unique position. I know that other countries have their own regimes, and I'll confine my comments to the decisions that we take as a government, which is that we believe the Taliban meet the definition of a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code, and that in creating this legislation we are mindful that as the controlling authority there are risks that need to be mitigated if we choose to amplify our humanitarian efforts on the ground—

[Yasir Naqvi, Liberal, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You're going exactly where I want you to go, because I want to very clearly ask you, what is the balance in light of everything we have just spoken about in terms of what's happening in Afghanistan and the impact of the Taliban's regime on the people of Afghanistan? As Canadians, as we try to provide help and aid to Afghan people through various NGOs, what's the balance you're trying to maintain here? What's the balance you're trying to create through this legislation?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

It's a very fair question, and it's important. It informs the twin objectives of this legislation.

The two priorities that we are attempting to balance here are, first, to create a vehicle that will allow us to deliver more humanitarian aid flexibly and on the basis of the input that we have received from many advocates and organizations that operate in the humanitarian space. That includes life necessities like food, shelter, education and support for those who may wish to come to Canada through settlement and immigration services.

Second, it's making sure that as we create the pathways to deliver that humanitarian aid, we reduce as much as possible the potential that those Canadian funds will be misappropriated and used to support the terrorist activities of the Taliban.

Those are the two priorities that we are trying to get the balance right on. We believe that this project does that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Naqvi.

Next, we'll go to two two-and-a-half-minute rounds.

We'll begin with Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for two and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To obtain authorization, NGOs must submit an application to Global Affairs Canada. Is that right?

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

They must submit an application to the Department of Foreign Affairs or to our colleagues in the Department of Immigration.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

So there's no one-stop shop. It's one department or another. NGOs related to immigration go to IRCC, and they expect the two departments to coordinate the process between them from then on.

I believe an additional response could be provided.

[Marco Mendicino, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I will turn the question over to my colleague, because I believe there is a technical response. There is a single gateway on the website.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, that's what I'd like to know. That's precisely my question. It says there are two gateways, but you say there's only one.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère, Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

We will create a one-stop shop.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Perfect.

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

Based on the field of activity, the application will be referred to one department or the other.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

To sum up, applications are submitted to Global Affairs Canada, right?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

There will be a Government of Canada portal.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

There will be a government portal, and then applications will be referred either to IRCC or Global Affairs. Then the Department of Public Safety will need to authorize everything.

So who oversees processing?

[Sébastien Aubertin-Giguère]

Overall responsibility for the program will fall to the Department of Public Safety.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Perfect.

However, if the gateway is not at the Department of Public Safety—it was at IRCC earlier—other departments will initiate the process without the oversight of the Department of Public Safety.