Justice Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

It will allow the court to be nimble on any new technologies, for example, that are brought in that would allow a trafficker to coerce and intimidate a victim. I brought an example to you, as well, earlier on, that there are all kinds of different ways that human traffickers coerce and intimidate their victims. There are some extremely horrible ways that they do that.

When you're looking at the technical question and you ask me about this bill, it's almost impossible to list all of them, so the decision was made to come up with a term that could be interpreted by the courts in a situation of human trafficking.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

We're talking about sending someone to prison. I tend to agree that we need to crack down on that kind of crime. I have no pity for someone who abuses or sells the sexual services of another person. Indeed, I think they should be punished. Nevertheless, as legislators, we must be diligent in our work. We're talking about sending someone to prison, and there is no room for error.

We made a choice. People can agree or disagree, but our society decided that it would rather let criminals walk free than put innocent people in prison. That's called the presumption of innocence. If someone is not found guilty of a crime, they're presumed innocent.

In order to determine whether someone is guilty of a crime, it is our duty, as legislators, to define that crime as clearly as possible.

Mr. Chair, is my time already up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Yes. You're about 45 seconds over, but that's no problem. I know it's a short time.

We'll go to Mr. Garrison for the final two and a half minutes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

When the bill was in the Senate, Professor Benedet from the UBC Allard School of Law suggested that if we were going to make this kind of amendment, perhaps there should be another element added. She suggested adding “abuse of a condition of vulnerability” to that definition of exploitation.

I wonder whether you are familiar with her proposal and what you think of that proposal.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Yes. I'd like to thank Professor Benedet, too, for all the work she's done as an expert witness in front of the House and the Senate, I think, in the past. She brought in something she thought should be added to the bill about the vulnerability—and this goes to what Mr. Fortin was saying as well—because it would now look at the victim. In other words, why was that victim chosen? There are certain people out there whom traffickers hunt down and select. Her interpretation would be that the bill should reflect that.

My response to that, Mr. Garrison, would be what Mr. Fortin and I were talking about. When it says “any other similar act”, I think, that would allow that to be incorporated. However, she does have a very good, strong opinion, and I hope, perhaps, if she is able to come to this committee, that you could delve a little more into what she thinks about that.

In my view, though, it would be handled with what we have there.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

I know I'm going to run out of time very quickly here. Most of the examples we've talked about are those that involve sexual trafficking and exploitation, but the existing law and the bill deal with a much broader question of exploitation of persons, including with respect to forced labour.

I wonder whether the changes you're suggesting broaden things so that all kinds of other practices that we wouldn't normally think of as exploitation might be brought under this bill if the definition were changed.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I don't think it is too broad. We have talked about sexual exploitation, but one of the biggest cases we had, I think, was the Domotor family case. This is quite common, if you listen to stakeholders, and I was unaware of this. One witness mentioned that for the cleaning businesses in his area, there was a reason the quote was so low for his office to be cleaned. The people who came in, in the middle of the night, were immigrants, new immigrants and maybe people who were in this country illegally, who were being abused and coerced and intimidated by someone. That trafficker was threatening their families at home if they didn't do the work.

This will deal not only with sexual exploitation. The target is those people who unceremoniously take advantage of new immigrants, people in vulnerable situations. That's the goal of the bill.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Randeep Sarai]

Thank you, Mr. Garrison.

That concludes our first hour. I want to thank Dr. Carrie for coming in today.

We'll now suspend and reconnect with a new link, since I believe it's in camera.

Mr. Clerk, just nod if it's yes.

Yes.

Okay, so I'll be suspending, and members who are on Zoom, please rejoin via the new link.

[Proceedings continue in camera]